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Counterbalances shaft information


Bucketmouth

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The counterbalance is just one characteristic of the shaft so you can't group all those shafts and make blanket statements about performance.

The design point was the ability to make the shaft longer and still keep the swing weights around a traditional number. Feel and launch may be different depending on the golfer and depending on how you choose to use the weight, ie play longer vs. shorter and adding head weight vs. playing with lighter swing weights etc.

 

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The redistribution of weight within the design of the shaft towards the butt allows for longer shaft lengths without raising heft/swing weight as much. It also allows you to add more weight to the head if you use traditional or even shorter lengths which can increase your ability to affect ball flight/forgiveness via more adjustable weight where applicable. There is also a feel component as well, but that is a very personal thing that can't really be objectively quantified.

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I don't think counterbalancing is to control swingweight. We talk endlessly around here about not using butt end weight to adjust swingweight and I'm sure the shaft makers and OEM's know this. Rather, I think it's more about a certain feel. Some may like it and others don't. It's a characteristic, that's all.

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Usually anywhere from 2-3 swingweight point depending on the shaft. To be clear, "counterbalancing" is not a binary thing, there is no standard there. Rather, it is on a scale We talk about that in the context of ADDING weight, not redistributing existing weight like a higher balance point shaft does.

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Just remember that a "counterbalance shaft" is not the same as adding grip or butt weight to get a lower swing weight reading on the scale. So 'counterbalanced' or even 'butt heavy' isn't really the best terms to use for those shafts and can be confusing. Rather it's a change in mass distribution along the whole shaft - or at least a change along much more of the shaft than just the very butt end to influence the shaft c.g. So the effect it has on the MOI contribution of the shaft is real and not just a side effect of the design of the swing weight scale - and therefor a much more real effect on the actual swing weight. So it really has played a part in allowing for managable swing weights with the longer playing lengths and 'normal' head weights.

We talk about that in the context of ADDING weight, not redistributing existing weight like a higher balance point shaft does

 

That's not really the significant distinction. It's the details of where along the shaft that the mass distributions changes that matters, not whether it's added vs redistributed. You can add weight to the shaft at it's c.g. and it will make a difference to the swing weight. It's only if you add it near the butt end (near the fulcrum or close to the butt) that the swing weight scale misbehaves.

 

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If we compare the standard model of Grafalloy RED with its SUPERCHARGED (CW weighted model), the shaft BP itself changes the clubs MOI value by 84 MOI points or equal to 7.0 grams head weight to compensate, all for a 45.00" long club. As SW value difference those 7.0 grams on a 45.00" long club becomes 4.37 SWP.

The Standard model add 217 points to total MOI, the CW weighted version 133 MOI points.

We CANT start from the STANDARD model and ADD Counterweight and get lower MOI. We started from 217, and add Total weight = MOI goes even higher..

A CW weighted shaft is a shaft where the shaft weight is the same, but redistributed to move BP against the grip side, so tip side is LIGHTER than on the standard version, and butt side has the weight moved from the tip side, as added weight on the butt side. Same shaft weight, but lower MOI value when CW balanced, and a drop in SW value and feel of head weight.

The CW weighted model is designed for those who weight to play a long driver without to heavy feel of head weight.

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No. Adding any weight anywhere will always increase the MOI. How much it adds is proportional to the length that the added weight is from the butt end of the club. for each contributing part: MOI = mass * length * length. So adding it at the very butt end will only be a small addition since the length is very small. But it still will be an addition, it will never subtract and therefore never make the head contribution any lighter the same way a "counterbalanced" shaft will.

 

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We cant ADD weight and reduce resistance. MOI or resistance always goes up with added weight, even if that weight was added grip side..

 

When we compare the 2 wood shafts, PL RED and PL RED Supercharged, they are both 65 grams (plus minus), so the CW version has a lighter tip side, and this weight reduction is moved butt side. We can add weight butt side, but we cant lower weight tip side, thats the problem, so if we used the standard version and wanted the return value from the SW scale to move by 4.5 SWP we would add 4.5 x 5 grams = 22.5 grams on the butt. The shaft we started from was 65 grams, now we have a 87.5 grams shafts, and it can never feel like the 65 gram version.

 

To make a shaft with the same shaft weight, and balance point as the Supercharged model, we would need to start from a shafts thats 65 total - 22.5 CW = 42.5 grams

Now we got the front half lighter like it has to be on the SS model, and can add 22.5 grams to the butt, and then we have our 65 grams CW balanced shaft.

 

So again, ADDING weight = higher MOI, so we cant counterweight the club we got, we need a lower starting point for shaft weight than what we got, equal to the need for how much we want shaft MOI down or how many SWP we want to remove. The rule of thumb is 5 grams grip side = 1 SWP

 

It becomes visible when we look at the actual shafts contribution to the clubs total MOI.

_here is both the PL RED SS (top chart), and the standard PL RED (or any other shafts with the same Balance point)

As we can see, on a club that plays to 45.00" the SS version contributes with 132.7 MOI points, and to get down there on a shaft with neutral BP we have to move to 40 grams to find a MOI value of 133.4. The added CW 22.5 to 25 grams, will add about 3 MOI points, so we end at 136.5 MOI points with our "home made" CW balanced shaft if we start from a 40 grams with neutral BP.

 

Our "home made" version as 87.5 grams would have a MOI as started of 216.8, plus the about 3 points from the added 22.5-25 grams butt side, a total MOI of about 220 MOI points vs a target of 133....Both Total weight and MOI goes up and make our "home made CW project" a very different animal than the original SS model.

E3OSLH27GKSF.png

 

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For most, it wont play much part at all in performance of the shaft. It can effect the feel a little but even that is mostly at impact and for off-center hits. There are a small percentage where the feel during the swing my be influenced. Typically the more aggressive transitions, faster swing speeds AND very late release. Amount of face closer through impact may play a part as well. And even for those, more often it's really the tip stiffness when it might appear to be the torque as there can be a general relationship between tip stiffness and torque. And finally there is no standardization for how the torque is measured so you can't even really compare torque values across different shaft companies.

So bottom line, don't worry about the torque spec. Try the shaft, and if the feel is not good or the performance is not good, it doesn't really matter if it really is the torque or not, just continue the trial and error testing until you find something that works.

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In one respect it's pretty simple. The ultimate goal is to find the combination of static weight and MOI (think of it as rotational weight) that gives the best results for each individuals specific mechanics. Weight is the resistance to motion (or really acceleration) and will dictate what we get as feedback from the club ("feel") on how we are making that motion. That feedback in tern can either help or hurt us control that motion to get the desired results.

Now finding that correct combination can be a bit tricky as everyone is different in the amount and type of feedback they are used to, how sensitive they are to changes, and how the results will be effected by changes. But it really comes down to a trial and error approach. In the case of MOI - or really head weight, you start out on the light side, go to the range and add head weight incrementally (easiest with lead tape for testing purposes) to see what happens. The amount of weight that gives the best feel and the best results is the final goal. Then you can measure the club and use that to get the other clubs to match.

Typically that is done after you've done some similar tests to dial in the shaft weight and also after you've figured out the best playing length. Those 3 things: total weight, length, and MOI all have to work together. If any one changes, then the others might need to change as well.

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Different MOI. For gear effect, the shaft weight distribution doesn't play any part. That's just the MOI of the head about a vertical and horizontal axis through the center of gravity of the head. And represents the resistance to rotation about the center of gravity of the head.

The MOI of the whole club for fitting uses an axis right at the very butt end of the club and is used to represent the resistance of the whole club rotating around that point on the butt/grip during the swing.

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Just adding to what Stuart already has written about MOI vs SW matched.

The SW system gives a actual progression of resistance as we go longer, meaning the player would need to add more power for each club longer.

The progression is NOT huge, but in some cases, large enough to prevent the player for being able to handle his longest iron, often both the #4 and the #3 iron.

 

MOI matched set is made to have the same actual resistance for all clubs, and we typical use of the short irons as starting point, or the club we want all the others to feel like as resistance. MOI matched irons is often made as 3/8" between clubs, both because its easier to get head weight right, and because we can improve performance in the long end, BOTH by a lower actual resistance, but also shorter play lengths in the long end where a #3 can be "1.5 clubs shorter" than standard.

 

MOI vs SW matched becomes a question of how you by nature swing your clubs, or want to swing them. If the long end always get the little extra, SW matched is the right choice, that set has the extra resistance needed to handle more power, while if you wants to use the same swing and power for all irons, then MOI matched is the system for you. And we dont have to go "on or the other" either, we can make "a little" - "medium" "or a lot" of progression in head weight just as we like, and what works the best for us. Its no "right or wrong" here, only bad, good, and perfect fit for each player.

 

And...like Stuart mention, both play length, and Total weight has to be right to, MOI or SW dont replace any of them, its a supplement to them, but as rank in importance, its always Play length as #1, Total weight is #2, Balance and balance system (MOI or SW, or Custom) is #3.

 

And for the record, my own clubs is MOI Matched (all of it)

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Those are all some great explanations. Now just a couple more for fun. Even though the science has been established. What can be felt and seen by the majority of players, knowing most are around a 15-20 handicap. Is this something only the tip tier golfers will appreciate.

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Not exactly sure what exactly you are refering to - I can only guess that's it's about getting a good fit for swing weight or MOI since in this thread is not about MOI vs swing weight but rather using the two terms to mean the same thing - adjusting head weight feel.

If so, In general, a proper fit for weight and swing weight or MOI can benefit everyone. In fact the difference is likely to have a bigger impact on the swing of a higher handicapper. The worse the swing flaws, the more the player has to manipulate the club during the swing, the more maniplation, the more a poor fit can become a hindrance, amplify swing flaws, or cause the loss of awareness of where the club is in the swing making it harder to control.

The better player might have a better or higher sensitivity to the difference in feel (and therefor maybe a better appreciation), but the better swing mechanics can likely handle and compensate for a less than ideal fit much better than the higher handicapper.

As far as how much it might effect a specific individual - only the trial and error testing will answer that but it has the potential to be noticeable (in the actual results) for anyone regardless of skill level.

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Yes, SW and CB was what I was referring to. What I got out of this topic was, how the two affect MOI.

Lets say I have a driver that I love, yet I would like to make a couple tweaks. Could I send it to someone and have everything measured and duplicated with todays technology? Would you have any recommendations? Thank you

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