Can you add length to the tip of an already tipped/trimmed shaft?

[wcdixon]

I have a feeling the answer will be 'No!' but folks on this site are so helpful and knowledgeable so here goes...

Can you pull already installed graphite shafts in a set of irons that have already been tipped/trimmed (I'm not sure the correct term) to make them stiffer and then add say an inch and a half to the tip and remove an inch and a half to two inches from the butt (these shafts are a third of an inch over standard) to hopefully make shafts overall a little lighter and slightly less stiff? I got great deal on a new custom built (for someone else) set of Callaway Steelhead XR irons with Accra i123 graphite M3 shafts that were tipped/trimmed when built so they feel heavy and are stiffer than regular flex. That all said am hitting them okay but would love if they were a hair lighter and a smidge less stiff.

Is rebuilding and adding length back to a tip even possible?

[farmer]

Stuart, or Ness will answer, but I want to be first. No, you cannot.

[Howard_Jones]

Yes and no....

 

Yes because we can get the effect of it, but very limited.

We say we need as a minimum 1.0" insert dept, while most hosels is 1.25", some even deeper, so in extreme cases, we can shim out the hosel to the max, but leave 1.0 for insert.

 

No, we cant really extend the tip section, but we can get the effect of it.....but limited, so expect 2/8" to be the norm for how much.

[Stuart_G]

I'd expand on what Howard said - not just limited but very limited. Most ams probably wont feel the difference that 1/4" will make. And if any tip weights are being used, you may not even have that much to work with.

The other way to get the shafts to play a bit softer is to add head weight. But since they already feel a bit too heavy to you, that's not really an option in your case (weight usually takes precedence over stiffness). And that's just as limited if not more so. Since it takes about 7 grams to get the equivalent of a soft step and even that's still only a fairly subtle change in feel.

 

For the weight issue (It wont help with the shafts feeling a bit too stiff) but as a test try choking up 1/2" and see if that helps with the clubs feeling a bit too heavy.

If it works in means the swing weight is a bit too heavy. You can address that by either reducing the length (maybe go to 3/8" length progressons) or pull the heads to see if there are any tip weights that can be removed.

If it doesn't work it means the shaft weight is likely too heavy and you probably should look for a shaft in the 110 gm to 115 gm range.

[wcdixon]

Very helpful answer and thank you - and you are confirming what I'd prefer not do if possible and that's replace these with something in the 105 gm range was what I was guessing...mostly because two club builder/fitter types I've spoken with locally both say they'd be apprehensive to pull an Accra shaft, being unfamiliar with the brand.

Perhaps I'll try cutting 3/8 off the butt of the 5 iron and see how that feels then decide whether to do rest...maybe that's all the weight reduction I need.

[Stuart_G]

Perhaps I'll try cutting 3/8 off the butt of the 5 iron and see how that feels then decide whether to do rest...maybe that's all the weight reduction I need.

 

There is really no advantage in actually cutting down the butt as an alternative to just choking up to test to see if the shorter length will work. In fact it can potentially reduce the resale value of the shafts if you do find out it doesn't work. So test first, cut only if it actually helps.

 

BTW - pulling accra isnt' going to be any different from pulling any other graphite shaft. Although I might be a bit concerned about any builder that didn't understand that.

[Howard_Jones]

If this 124 grams shaft is too heavy, going shorter by 3/8" want fix it....This shaft is 124 grams at 41 inch pr 3.02 grams pr inch

SO your weight reduction will be 3.05/8 x 3 = 1.13 grams....

But...for each 1/8" we go shorter, we loose feel of head weight equal to 0.75 SWP, in this case 2.25 SWP, so it will feel like you lost about 4.5 grams head weight, thats the dominant factor and difference here, NOT shaft weight,it hardly moves in direction of a 105 grams.....

 

Like Stuart suggest, just lower your hands on the grip to feel how that will be, we dont have to cut anything to try that off

Use a piece of tape to cover the part of the grip thats "out of play" (3/8") and lower your hands below that tape so you get a constant mark to try this off.

[wcdixon]

ThaThanks Howard and Stuart...really very helpful. I was under naïve impression that cutting down 3/8 to 1/2 an inch from butt would reduce shaft weight by around 15 gms...but if I am understanding you the actual shaft weight will reduce very little but it's the feel of the head weight that will get lighter (and again, making sure I understand you it's not like the head weight actually changes but it 'feels' lighter?). Although if I'm starting with a 5 iron shaft already installed measuring 38.25 inches I'd assume that it would already be lighter than 124g - like 115gm? Or does that shaft weight reduction depend on where the shafts were cut when installed....based on stiffness i'd say these were trimmed from tip.

Yes I've tried taping down out of play part of grip and it definitely has helped at 3/8 of an inch but being honest it wasn't until I choked down an inch and a half did clubhead weight start to 'feel' better/comfortably lighter. And of course to screw me mind up as long as I swung firmly and deliberately I was striking them very solidly with tight dispersion, choking down or not. I just felt very nervous when trying to hit like a three quarter shot or take an easy swing...never felt confident I could get the clubhead back to square and through to target unless I swung firmer/harder.

I probably should stop hassling and annoying folks on this site and just take the 5 iron (since I was considering leaving it out of bag for a hybrid) and trim a half inch off the butt and regrip and see if feels better...then decide what to do with remainder of iron set. Thanks again for your help.

And yeah I didn't understand these guys aversion to Accra shafts (something about how there were bored into or attached to Steelhead XR clubheads? I didn't really get what they were saying) - didn't inspire much confidence yes.

 

[Stuart_G]

Is it just the 5 iron that feels heavy - or is it all the irons in the set?

Yes, choking up is just about the head weight feel (or swing weight feel).

The i123 M3 is 124 gm uncut and 41" long uncut. The Steelhead XR's are I believe a bore through design - although it's also possible to do a blind bore installation so you never know what might have been done with a custom build. A rough guess at the cut weight for a 38.25 playing length would be somewhere between 110-115 gm.

It's probably the blind bore head that's making those guys nervous. Although pulling a blind bore install isn't any different from a standard bore with irons (blind bore woods can be a bit more tricky). Now it might actually be the installation of the replacement shaft that they are likely shying away from, that's really where it might deviate from what they are used to or comfortable with.

 

[wcdixon]

All the irons feel on the heavy side (though just slightly - might be a combo of slightly heavier than my comfort feel and them being slightly stiffer...like an R+ if such a thing exists) but 5i and 6i and 7i more so.

If that approximate weight of playing length then i'm betting a shaft in 95g - 105g probably more what I'd prefer feel-wise (but maybe not what I necessarily hit better...so complicated! haha)

Yes to all of your thoughts about what's making them nervous...as I believe I heard variations of what you said about bore heads and replacing with new shafts or putting Accra's back in.

Thanks!

[Stuart_G]

Yes, 95gm - 105 gm would likely be a good cut weight - but still means you're looking for a shaft with an uncut weight of 105-115. The higher side for a const or ascending weight shafts, lower side for descending weight shafts. And based on the fact that the longer irons are worse than the shorter irons, I'd say that's a pretty good recommendation to stay away from descending weight (all accras except the iCWT's). Unfortunately not a lot of options that are that heavy and come in an R/R+ flex. Closest I can think of would be the Steelfiber fc115's - they don't come in reg but the stiff's are on the softer side of the flex. To get R-flex you usually have to go down to 90-100 gm shafts (uncut weight). Now might be several options in steel - but I'm not familiar with them.

[swgolf12]

Not sure if it has been recommended but you could soft step them. put the 4 iron shaft in the 5 iron head, or even the 6 iron shaft for a 2x soft step. This will make them pay marginally softer.

[wcdixon]

I actually like this idea and considered it when i first read about hard and soft stepping shafts last week (never heard of that before) but because these sticks are heavy feeling and stiffer my guess when they were custom made the tips were trimmed OR they were hard stepped already (just based on how little tapering there is down near the clubheads) or both? - but not sure how one finds out if there were or not. I have to assume an experienced fitter/club builder would be able to tell...now i just have to find one lol.

[Stuart_G]

That accra shaft is a single length (descending weight) parallel tip. They would be 'tipped' progressively for a normal installation (e.g. 1/2" for the 3i, 1" for the 4i, 1.5" for the 5i, etc...). So the fact that they don't have any taper near the hosel is not telling you anything and is completely normal. It's possible they were tipped more or less then the recommended amount - which would be the single length shaft equivalent to hard and soft stepping. But unless you talk to the person who installed the shafts, it's going to be difficult to tell what was done. Unless you can get your hands on a uncut blank shaft to compare the installed ones to or find some tip to graphics measurement to use (might try contacting accra customer support for that). Now the recommended amount of tipping for each club is generally given for a standard bore head and would have to be adjusted for a bore through head. If it was not adjusted in your case, that could result in the shaft playing stiffer than 'normal'.

Or unless you have some specific experience with that particular shaft in another head or set as a comparion, it could be that the installation was done properly and they are playing as designed, and it just happens to have a profile that is too stiff for you.

Soft stepping the existing shafts is certainly an option but that means getting a new shaft for the 5 iron and also finding someone to pull and reinstall - which you previously seemed to be having problems with. Also soft stepping can be a fairly subtle change it's hard to say whether it will really be enough. You may have to soft step x2 (need two new shafts). Finally, unlike discrete length (const weight or ascending weight) shafts soft stepping the descending weight shafts wont change your weight problem.

So IMO, if you're going to go through all the cost and effort of having the shafts pulled and reinstalling, I still think you'd be better off reinstalling a shaft with a better fit for weight.

[wcdixon]

Thank you so much Stuart for such a thorough yet understandable overview and explanation…much appreciated. The only part I'm going to have to look up and try to wrap my head around is the discrete weight (constant weight or ascending weight) vs descending weight shafts - it sounds like you are saying that Accra i123 shafts are descending weight shafts, so buying two new ones and soft stepping x2 them wouldn't make them feel any lighter necessarily just make shafts less stiff? If so you're absolutely correct...lot of work and cost for not the desired end result.

Yes your closing point very likely the best and most logical conclusion. And likely the installation was probably done properly and they are playing as designed...when I choke down about 1 3/8 inch they feel pretty good and even if a little on the stiff side I hit them well (indoors)….I guess I'm just trying to salvage a fantastic more than 50% off purchase with some quick fix haha. I will keep practicing with them and still might try cutting an inch off the butt of the 5 iron and replacing standard grip with mid-size grip and see how that feels, since I was on the fence about keeping the 5i in the bag anyway. OR just try to sell them (someone told me with the Accra shafts I could probably get more for them than I paid) and find same clubheads with say, the Steelfiber fc115's you recommended or perhaps Recoil 110 f4 after trying the Recoil 95 f3(which already sound like they might feel lighter than I like)...it seems like there's got to be some 110g shafts in a regular to regular plus stiffness out there somewhere, but you're right - I'm not finding them either.

Thanks again

[Stuart_G]

Decending weight shafts means the cut shaft weight will get lighter as the irons progress from the longer irons to the shorter ones. This is because they all start as the same shaft blank. The shorter the playing length, the more of the shaft is cut from the original blank, therefore the lighter it becomes. This weight progression is less than ideal, more generally you want the opposite progression that's why the wedge shafts are usually the heaviest and as you progress from wedges to irons to hybrids, to fairways to driver we generally see the shaft weight going down as the playing lengths get longer. But it is cheaper to design and manufacture since they only one type of shaft to produce or manage inventory (for the club OEMs). Also and spares on hand can be used for whatever iron it's needed in.

Constant weight shafts are designed such that there is a different blank used for each iron. An uncut 5 iron shaft is not the same as the uncut 6 iron shaft. The weight of each is managed in way that all the cut shaft weights stay the same when the clubs are built with the standard 1/2" playing length increments. The downside being that now they have to manufacture 8 or 9 differnet shafts for each combination of model and flex instead of one. But it's generally considered to give a more even feel through the iron set.

Ascending weight shafts are relatively new. They are similar to the constant weight except that the weight is adjusted for each individual shaft such that the cut shaft weight of the shorter irons is actually heavier than the longer ones. The TT AMT shafts are the most well known example. And for those there is about a 3 gm difference in weight between shafts (after cutting). UST Recoils do the same but the difference is less, only 1-2 gm difference between shafts.

 

Any reason you need graphite?

KBS Tour's and $-tapers are both 110 gm in Reg or 115 gm in R+.

PX steel and PX LZ steel 5.0 is 110 gm, the 5.5's are 115 gm.

 

Another possibility might be hard to find since they don't make them any more, but they do turn up from time to time so you might look to see if you can find a set of Aldila VS-proto 100 gm shafts in reg flex. Not a lot but a little better than the recoil 95's.

[wcdixon]

Again - nicely explained in an easily understood way...thanks. And I just read about tapered vs parallel tips so understand what that means now haha.

The change to graphite after hitting steel for 40 years was based solely on 1) getting older, 2) someone giving me a graphite shafted Callaway X-14 8i a few years ago and I always hit it solid with a little more distance than my Memphis 10 steel X-12 8i, and probably most importantly 3) stopped playing for past 6 years after developing a persistent case of golfer's elbow...returned to game this summer wearing an elbow sleeve and forearm band and felt much less to no discomfort hitting new graphite hybrids and 3 wood I picked up at same time. Presumed graphite shafts in irons as well would be the better-for-my-elbow call. And yes I also saw those Aldila's written about online but they were discontinued if I remember. The KBS TGI Tour 95 has me intrigued to check out...and the Accra iCWT 95 as well....will see if I can test somewhere.

Have taken up too much of your time but again, all your insight and info much appreciated. Thanks.

[Howard_Jones]

Just a tip at last about shaft weight systems and tip size....

Taper tips are mostly Constant weight, but there is also Ascending and Descending weight models among them.

Parallel tips the same, you find them as all 3 weight systems, so never assume its one or the other based on the tip alone.

You will also find constant wgt models as graphite, so not all graphite shafts is descending weight, and some graphite models is Ascending weight, so neither what its made off, or its tip diameter tells what weight system it belongs to, we always have to check that out as a separate parameter.