Help rebuilding my iron set

[CF_Frost]

So I recently had the bright idea to replace my 7-9 irons because of the wear spots and need some help from some folks more experienced. I don’t want to just cut and paste and want to do the job as correctly as possible, but every time I learn one new thing it results in me learning something else new that I need to account for and that I did not previously account for. I would like for someone with more experience to check my thought process here.

I am not currently dying to have the irons at one specific swing weight, and most of the clubs will be exactly the same setup aside from new ferrules. My main objective here is to set them at a consistent swing weight across the board and get them a close to the D2 setup that the stock irons were suppose to be set to. I have already foolishly broken down the clubs without first checking their original swing weight but like I said I am more concerned about consistency across the board here and am not in love with whatever the swing weight was before. Based on the head weights and the tips installed, I believe they were all across the board since the shaft lengths were allegedly standard. I suppose I am giving too much credit there since the swing weight was likely off, but I am comfortable with the length of the irons as they are currently stand.

 

The constants in the equation will be the 6-3 irons, the shafts, and I plan to install the same grips. the ferrules will be different but will he the same new ferrules for each iron.

The biggest changes will be the new heads and new tip weights I install. The iron heads were all within a gram of the heads I dissembled but had varying tip weights.

 

My plan is to build the set with as consistent of a 7 gram differential between head weights as possible. From my understanding this is standard. From there, I will dry build the set and check swing weight. I am perfectly fine with adding lead tape as needed from there, but want to start with as consistent and sound of a build as possible. I am using my six iron head as the measuring stick for the rest of the set, as I am aware what the stock head weight should be for that and I am a half a gram away from that with my current six iron head weight. Once I figure out the best way to weight the heads in as close to 7g increments as possible, I will dry build and test swing weight. Assuming they are close to D2 and consistent I will roll with it. If they are crazy light I will add lead tape to get them consistent. If they are all over the board I will panic.

 

Tell me how much of an idiot I am and how wrong I am below.

[tanker44]

You’re not an idiot. You are right where you belong. Everyone here has the same disease. Serenity now.

[CF_Frost]

The new ferrules weigh approximately 1.5 grams more than the previous ferrules for anyone keeping score at home.

[Chip Duffer]

2 grams typically will increase swing weight 1 point, so 1.5 should increase it about 3/4 of a point. This should make it easier to achieve your desired D2.

If it pushes you over the D2 and you trimmed to final length not including grip cap you would have 1/8”-3/16” that you could trim, reducing SW and measuring finish length with the grip on. (I hope that made sense)

[Milfordlefty]

Assuming you have a swing weight scale, you can do a dry assembly with heads, shafts and ferrules, but no grips. I beleive a 50 gram grip has a 9 swingweight point impact. Therefore if you have a dry fit non-gripped club on your swing weight scale reading E1, with a 50 gram grip it should be D2. I suppose epoxy could have a small impact on swing weight, just don't go crazy with it during assembly. Fine tuning with lead tape in the cavity after assembly is also an option. Maybe Howard Jones, Stuart G or Nessism will chime in if anything I've said is incorrect.

[jvincent]

@CF_Frost as I understand your original post you are keeping the original shafts and replacing the grips and heads.
Since you have the original heads, tip weights, and ferrules all you need to do is measure the total weight for those and make sure that the new heads, tip weights, and ferrules end up the same weight and you'll get the same swingweight that you had before IF, and it's a reasonably big if, the insertion depth of the shaft into the new head AND the bore to ground measurement are the same.
What you need to do is measure the length of the club with the old head and make sure that the length with the new head is the same. If they are not then not only will the swingweight be off but there could be other side effects.
It's not uncommon for the length to change by 1/4" for different heads when re-using shafts.

[CF_Frost]

Thanks for the input everyone. As an update, my swingweight scale arrived this morning and since I had the day off I’ve been tinkering. With some dry builds I believe I can get my swing weights pretty darn consistent across the board with a few tip weights here and there. The heads won’t be exactly 7g differences across the set but within 10g or so from club to club. I am guessing the swing weight is more important than an even 7g weight difference from head to head in terms of feel, but that’s not something I have the knowledge to say definitively. The weights would be in different clubs to do so, so I think that reinforces that the swing weights were very much off before I started tearing things apart.

[CF_Frost]

 

It does make sense. I dry fitted originally with some ferrules similar to the stock irons and have now again dry fitted with the new heavier ferrules I intend to install. This could be user error but my numbers are a little more across the board this time, with the longer irons coming in at D4 and the shorter irons coming in at D1-D2. I am assuming that is attributed to the additional mass of the ferrules impacting a longer club more so than a shorter one but that logic might be flat out wrong. Am now thinking about going D4 across the board since I can make it consistent by adding head weight to the higher lofted irons and I am not set on one specific swing weight, just looking for a consistent one.

[CF_Frost]

Or maybe I will go with lighter ferrules and add these ferrules to my wedges. I guess I do belong.

[Redpro]

Just breezed in here while watching the matches.

You will be weighing your epoxy mix, right?

Plus, if you are using ferrules with colored bands, that must be factored into the equation.

I've had this illness.

No cure.

Frosty . . . you belong my friend!

[stoneydukes]

which swingweight scale did you go with? I've been using the DIY version from Hireko and using the calculator on there. Have confirmed finished SW on a legit scale and feel comfortable that the calculator and measurement gets close enough but involves a bit more work. If I can an immediate SW from a reasonably priced scale, I'd probably pop on one.

 

[CF_Frost]

As an update, I did another dry fitting and made sure I did every single iron as similarly as the previous one. I now believe I have more sensible, consistent results. I have the economy swingweight scale, which is the cheap version but I have read some positive reviews on it. I found a more level surface and that helped. I should be able to get all of the clubs within a half a swingweight point to D3 with the new ferrules, which seems to make sense there is a gram and a half difference in the ferrule weight. That half a swingweight point might end up driving me nuts but I’m trying to let it slide.

[Howard_Jones]

If you want to make tighter specs, you will have to start with LOFT & LIE ANGLEs

There is always a few clubs in the set thats not on specs, and if you build the clubs and adjust them later, SW value moves.

1* = 0.25- 0.33 SWP, so if 0.5* SWP is a issue for you now, it will be worse if you dont start with loft and lie angles....

 

And DONT use "rule of thumbs" for SW when you build clubs, use this chart for tip weights, and if example 3.5 grams is needed, we take a 4 gram weight and grind off 0.5 grams. Thats how you get tighter specs....

GRIPS should be left out during dry fit. Slip grips like may uses (a old grip we cut off), want always be correct placed on the butt end, so we get a variable actual play length who makes a difference for the return numbers from the scale. Simply leave the grips off, and dry frit to a value 9 SWP above target. Example if your target is D2 with a standard grip, you dry fit to E1 without.

 

The grips them self should be weight sorted. There is always weight variables and up to 3.5 grams both ways from official specs.

We can either sort them "light to heavy" (longest club the lightest grip), OR use them to even out total weight progression. If you go by the last option, you will have to finish assemble of all club, and put each one on a gram scale and make a list. Now you will be able to see clubs that lower or higher than the average slope, and give them the grip who gets them all more inline with a good total weight slope. Total weight is #2 in importance and more important than balance or SW values, so DONT let grips interfere with decisions for SW values.

 

A set with constant wgt shafts and flat SW value (same SW value for all) will have a total weight progression of 7 grams.

Since shaft weight has a tolerance, this 7 grams want be a constant, and we can use the variable in grip weight to "fix that"

So if one club only is 5 grams up, that club should get a grip thats average 2 grams above the others, and a club thats 9 grams up, a grip thats 2 grams below the others....

 

[CF_Frost]

Thank you Howard, I was hoping you would chime in here. I will likely go the route of the grip sorting to try to level out my total weight as you mention above

 

I have now dry weighted without the grip. I attribute this to user error and possibly not having the most precise instrument, but my swingweights are all 11 points under the swingweights I had calculated when I previously dry fit with a grip. From your post above, it sounds like they should be 9 point differences. I will double check them again but do you believe I should build based on the dry fitting numbers without the grip?

 

Also, why does loft and lie impact swingweight? I’m 100% not questioning or doubting you, but the concept of these specs impacting swingweight is going right over my head.

[Howard_Jones]

Grips first...the difference of 9 SWP is from a club without grip to the same club with a standard OEM grip of 50 grams. If yours is 11 off, it sounds like grips with more weight than standard.

The reason why SW moves with lie angles was given above, we simply make the distance from the butt end longer or shorter to the club heads COG.

More upright or stronger lofts = shorter, flat or weaker lofts = longer. This photo shows how lie angle makes the distance longer or shorter and by that, moves SW values

.

[CF_Frost]

That makes much more sense. The graphic helps me wrap my head around it.

 

And yes, the grip initially weighed about 55 grams so I suppose that could be responsible for the difference.

 

Thanks again for your help.

[Howard_Jones]

Just to make sure we dont talk over each others head here...

What i prefer to call TRUE SW, is a dry fit 9 SWP below target.....

If you did a fitting, WITH that grip on, and measured SW with that grip on, thats your PLAY SW.

IF you tried the SW scale on one club with grip, and 1 without, and found a difference of 11 SWP , then your dry fit target is 11 above without grips.

 

My only other comment is that the difference (2 SWP) sound like a lot for a 55 gram grip, it must be very "butt heavy" (balance point closer than 4 inch from the end) or have a thicker than normal butt cap.

We normally only changes dry fit offset from 9 to 10 when we move from New decade to New Decade MID, so you either have a very different grip than normal, or your return value is off, so try to balance 1 grip and try your SW scale again...it does not sound right to me, but i could be wrong

[CF_Frost]

I will dry fit again this evening and report back with the swingweight without and then the grip (which I believe is what you are referencing as true SW and play SW). I did get a consistent 11 point differential across the board when I compared the weighting with and without the grips, but my suspicion is also that the discrepancy is likely user error on my part. The grip is a tour velvet and the shafts are Project X 6.0s, both of which I assume are pretty standard.

[CF_Frost]

Well Howard I am starting to feel as though my incompetency is wasting your time and generosity.

I believe that the 11 point discrepancy between my previous weighting attempt with a grip and then without was because I was measuring from two different spots on the table. I erroneously said my grip was 55 grams but went to verify that tonight and it was 51.5, however.

In the name of science I found a nice level spot and kept my scale in the same location when weighing both with and without grips. My clubs with grips came in pretty much exactly where my previous measurements were with them, but the newest mystery in my saga is that the gripless dry fit was pretty much spot on at a 7.5 point differential. I suppose that is better but is still frustrating nonetheless. If any explanation on the 7.5 differential jumps out at you then that might help me sleep better at night, but I am going to blame the Indian and not the arrow

I am not certain if I should trust the true swingweight or play swingweight in my dry builds (your feedback would be appreciated as I will likely go that direction), but I am not afraid of lead tape and suppose the silver lining is that I can get them consistent across the set by applying some. That was my main goal, as I am not married to a specific swingweight but would like for the set to be as consistent as possible. Thank you again for your help.

 

[Howard_Jones]

I dont know the SW scale your are using, some scales has adjustment options to fit the table/surface, others dont, so they need to be put on a totally flat surface.

use a libelle to check your table, and "shim it up" to make it flat both length and sideways.

A standard Golfpride Tour velvet is the closest you get to a standard OEM grip, (only 1 layer of grip tape), so if you KNOW what SW value that fits you using that grip, you can use 9 SWP as offset factor between with and without grips.

[Stuart_G]

@CF_Frost but the newest mystery in my saga is that the gripless dry fit was pretty much spot on at a 7.5 point differential

That's not really that far off since the differential is typically 9 - and that can vary a bit based on the size of the grip cap or type and amount of grip tape.

When you say you are comparing measurements with and without the grip, how exactly are you measuring it with the grip? Did you actually install the grip fully (e.g. blow it on/off)? Or maybe tape it against the shaft? How much grip tape, if any is being used?
Posting pictures of how you are measuring it may help as well as you never know what someone might notice about your methods.

[CF_Frost]

 

Not a complete install, just a split grip as firmly on the butt end of the shaft as possible. No tape. I will try to get some pics this evening.

[Howard_Jones]

a reason for NOT using split grips is that we might not place it correct each time and make club length variable.

1/8" is equal to 0.75 SWP, or as metric 1 mm = 0.25 SWP so it does not take much to get a wrong return value, but your differences was larger than can be explained by this

[ruxpin23]

On 12/15/2019 at 11:50 PM, Howard_Jones said:

Grips first...the difference of 9 SWP is from a club without grip to the same club with a standard OEM grip of 50 grams. If yours is 11 off, it sounds like grips with more weight than standard.

The reason why SW moves with lie angles was given above, we simply make the distance from the butt end longer or shorter to the club heads COG.

More upright or stronger lofts = shorter, flat or weaker lofts = longer. This photo shows how lie angle makes the distance longer or shorter and by that, moves SW values

.

 

hi Howard,

when measuring the gripless club, does that include grip tape on or off the club, or does it not matter?

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, ruxpin23 said:

 

hi Howard,

when measuring the gripless club, does that include grip tape on or off the club, or does it not matter?

The only tape that goes over the butt, is the last layer of grip tape, and that extend the club with 0.010 inches....you want be able to measure that on a golf ruler, so it simply dont count when we measure Length (and lengths addition to SW), but a "un-gripped" club, DONT have tape on the butt at all,. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Howard_Jones