lie angle and balance

[Justin_Breezy88]

so i had someone change the lie angles on my irons and the loft of my of pitching wedge, i believe he went at first 3 degrees flat then changed it again and went 2 degrees upright from there. now when i swing i feel the balance is off, my swing goes off plane and the club goes inward automatically kind of like as if i were hitting a draw. and when the club is down at address i cant seem to have it balanced it keeps turning left or leaning left. i was wondering is this all in my head or is this an actual issue and if it is an issue please help me on what are my options. or at least what happened because i have tried my old clubs and they all seem to be ok

[Howard_Jones]

No its not in your head.

When we bend a club upright, we move COG closer to our hands, and flat away from our hands,

Depending on club, we can count 3-4* lie angle change as 1 SWP, so if we simplify it and say its 4* to 1 SWP and that 1 SWP is equal to 2.0 grams, then a change of 1* is equal to 0.5 grams head weight.

 

Im not sure what you mean by falling left, but when we bend lofts, its really face angle we bend, so more loft will make the club to fall more closed at adress, and we will have to square it up to convert the face angle change to become a loft change.

[Stuart_G]

If I had to guess, I'd say the change in lie angle has resulted in a change in your set-up position and/or posture. Just realize that the ideal is that your swing and setup should dictate what lie angle you should play, not the other way around.

[Adam C]

This sounds like your eyes aren't liking what you are seeing at setup and you are making some sort of unconscious adjustment during your setup or swing to compensate. If your irons always sat flat (meaning level) and square without manipulation from you and now they don't, that could definitely play havoc with your head, at least until you get used to the new look.

Before you do anything else, I would tell you to hit at least 500 balls with the clubs. Changing club specs be it lie angle, loft, weight, is similar to making a swing change. You need reps for any swing change to become ingrained and it's no different here. Assuming the lie angle is correct, give it some time before you make another change.

[Stuart_G]

Assuming the lie angle is correct,

 

That's a good point. What method was used to determine that you needed that drastic a lie angle change? Lie boards frequently show the need for a lie angle that's much more upright than the player really needs. Yet lots of places continue to use them. Here is a much more accurate way to test and it's something you can do yourself with just a dry erase marker (don't even really need the face labels).https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1355102/open-source-face-labels-for-lie-angle-diy-lie-angle-testing/p1

[Justin_Breezy88]

used tape on the bottom of the club

[Stuart_G]

Same as a lie board - not accurate, ore really not reliable. Use the test in the link instead.

[Justin_Breezy88]

yeah i just printed it out right now, thank you man ill try it out later on today and tell u how it went

[Justin_Breezy88]

Hey how do I read the results? What if it looks like it’s 1.5 flat does that mean I have to bend my club that way or is the goal to bend it 1.5 upright to bring it back to “0” position ?

[hurley999s]

Look at this. If you’re lines look like the shape/angle of the blue ones, you are that much too flat and need to bend upright. If the angle is like the red ones, it’s that upright and need to bend that much flatter.

[Howard_Jones]

The impact line on the head to the left is moved onto the label, and this example is a head where lie angle was 1.5* to much upright at impact, so to get lie angle neutral or 0* we need to bend the club 1.5* FLAT from where it is. its the ANGLE of the line we shall judge, NOT where we made impact

 

Just imagine what direction we have to bend the head to get this line strait', we have to get toe side DOWN, thats why the label say GO FLAT when the line is pointing to the toe

 

 

[Justin_Breezy88]

So I did this so wrong I used a thick marker and I didn’t hit the ball so well, but here check it out

[hurley999s]

Like Howard said, location doesn’t matter (we’ll not for lie), just the angle of the line. We’re they 3 different clubs you used? If so, looks like first 2 should go 1 degree upright (your line is parallel to the 1* blue line), and 3rd looks like maybe it should go 0.5” up...if they’re all the same club, I’ll defer to Howard but would guess you should go hit some more to confirm or maybe go 1* upright since most of your shots fit that line.

[Justin_Breezy88]

thank you man, the first two was a 6 iron, the last one was 7 iron

[hurley999s]

That’s good to know and it brings up a good topic - ideally this should be done with all irons because it’s not a given that just because you need to go up 1 in one of them that it holds true for all. Clubs can be slightly different from the factory, your swing may react different to others at different lengths, etc.

[Howard_Jones]

i agree with both your replies here, and most players dont know actual specs on their clubs, so its not uncommon that some need more adjustments than others, and its not uncommon that some clubs want fall into a strait slope line like "1 upright" vs standard for all in the set. Some clubs might vary from that.

[Justin_Breezy88]

i see, thanks guyz I learned so much it’s crazy lol, one more question so about changing these lie angles will it change the balance of the club?

[Justin_Breezy88]

does 0.5 lie angle make a difference ? is that much precision noticeable? for example what if i move my lie angle upright 0.8 rather than 1.0 degree. u know what i mean

[smoky25]

I play a pretty soft forged iron (Callaway Stensons) that I need to check 3-4 times/yr. I've played with them so long that I can tell (more like a feeling) when they are off, but it's usually at least 1* before I notice it. The Tour guys can probably discern a smaller change but I can't.

[scctx5r]

I have to agree with @Stuart_G on this one.

[sm_watts]

I'd like to thank all of you guys for constructive comments on here, not just bashing with stupid 1-line responses. It's threads like this that keep me reading on this site to learn something new each day.

[Howard_Jones]

As a rule of thumb we use 1* on lie angle as 3 yards off line, 1* flat (like now vs neutral) is to the right for a right hand player so ball flight will be more to the left after bending.

Balance does change, but if you can notice that or if it matters, i cant tell. Depending on head type 3-4* = 1 SWP so if we say its 4:1 then going 1 upright will make you loose 0.25 SWP or equal to the feel of about 0.5-0.6 grams head weight, thats the ball park we are talking....

[Justin_Breezy88]

if i were to go flatter by the look of the clubhead at address it makes me feel as if i have to stand much farther back and when i swing the club swings inside on the downswing. is this something normal that happens? or is this in my head?

is there a standard for lie angle? when lie angle is adjusted does that mean the loft must also be adjusted? will this add or take away offset?

[Howard_Jones]

Loft and lie is independent, loft adjustment also makes a small change to offset, lie angle change dont.

When we go upright, the the grips is delivered higher and club head and ball gets closer to us, when we go flat, the grip is delivered lower, and the club head and ball further away.

[Justin_Breezy88]

so i went 1 degree upright with my irons according to the results i posted earlier in the thread. so that 1 degree made a complete difference in feel, from the balance to the way it just swings and how it looks at address. it now performs so much better in my opinion. i know everyone is different but my point is that 1 degree from my 5i to my pw, changed everything in a good way. thank you everyone for the help i appreciate you guyz.

 

 

 

(side not i also built a driving iron i'm pretty proud of)

srixon z u85 4iron driving iron:

custom 1 inch silver ferrule,

No1 50 pro grip black and blue,

+0.5 upright from standard lie,

VA composites raijin hybrid stiff shaft 39.25",

and bent to 21.5 degree loft from the standard 23 =)