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The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy


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> @Zizzer said:

> Jim would be interested in your comments on two or three related matters. First, to those of us who know the Golfing Machine it seems your pushaway has to put the club above (and not pointed at) the target line.

> This connects up to issues of plane and whether and is so how much to flatten the COM on the down swing. How does ASI connect up here?

> Second, back swing sequence may not be the secret of golf but .... Any thoughts or drills for those of us who turn out hips early, but fully, and there end up restricting our shoulder turn to less than the ideal (90*) or even the barely acceptable (75*)

> This is a nice video on your pushaway

> If the budget said only one of your videos on the ASI, which one?

>

 

We offer only one video on the ASI, Module Two is over two hours dedicated entirely to understanding the illusion and how to remove it from your Swing Map.

 

The video you posted is from 22 years ago, ie not current and not in line entirely with my understanding of the asi today.

Get the new Module Two video is you wish to truly understand the asi.

 

No on your Golfing Machine plane question. Nothing about the pushaway creates a steeper than ideal plane of the shaft.

Quite the opposite! Only would do that if the blend of the pushaway with pivot and wrist c0cking was done poorly, ie too much or too early or too close to mid-line of torso with the lead arm to chest angle would create an above the ideal shaft plane motion. Anyone who sees the arm pushaway creating a steep shaft plane angle is thinking in 2D and not seeing through the illusion.

 

I teach a slight shaft flattening on Transition in two ways: natural shaft flattening happens (about 10 degrees) from lateral tailbone/hip shift and Tilt Switch; advanced shaft flattening from external rotation of right upper arm and movement of right elbow toward torso mid-line and bowing of lead wrist.

Not sure I understand your backswing question, but sounds like just an issue of poor body awareness.

When it comes to actual application of swing theory to a real live human being, what matters most in terms of successful application is the golfers ability to connect mind-brain to body so that your mental intention has a chance to actually change your body motion.

 

That means having some degree of objective feel based awareness for what your body is actually doing.

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Seems like more than the usual number of questions lately about which format I recommend for folks unable to actually make it out to Portland, Oahu or Palm Springs to work with me in person.

I offer three options, and I am listing them here in order of effectiveness.

 

1. take an online real time lesson via webcam. You send me swing video in advance for me to analyze and then we go over my conclusions and recommended drills in the webcam lesson. This is far and away the most effective of the three options. The main reason is that it is actual real instruction geared toward you as the student and not just swing theory or swing "ideals". Theory is great and you need some as a starting point but the really important thing is to know a. which part of the swing model do I as the golf student need to focus on today and in the next month or so of training in order to make a real difference in my game, both short term and long term? And the simple truth is this - the average golfer has no clue as to which parts of the swing model to start with! How could he? That takes a ton of experience and expertise and is a large part of why you are paying a teacher in the first place. And b. how do I as the golf student actually "apply" that swing theory so that my body successfully learns to the level of dominant habit the proper movement pattern? That also takes some experience and expertise. Most of my new students have no idea how to go about the process of actually making that swing change. And just "thinking" about the swing change is not even going to come close to helping you achieve that change, in fact, "thinking" about moving body parts tends to make you flinch and is NOT helpful. But in today's world of golf instruction, "thinking" about that swing change is the default position for 99% of golfers. That is a huge mistake!

 

2. My video program devoted to mastering the craft of ballstriking is the next best option. A lot of my online students use the video information as a supplement to the actual instruction, which is the way I recommend using the video. But I also designed the video program to be a step-by-step format for self-directed learning for those golfers who prefer to do it all by themselves. The video is obviously way more information than just reading text on a page like in any book, which is why video is always going to be superior to a book. If you are a beginner or a high handicapper, start with the first video in the series and go through all 13 videos to the end. PM me for my recommendations which will be based on your current ballstriking skill level.

 

3. My 205 page e-book devoted to the model golf swing. For golfers who are swing theory junkies, or for any golfer interested in getting the entire package of my model golf swing information in a more affordable format, or for golfers who prefer to start with a strong intellectual foundation in theory, this a good option.

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I've been looking at your stuff now for a few years. One thing I feel by pushing the club away during the swing is the sensation of being freer to keep my right arm straighter during the swing. (Left hander). It makes me feel young again. Won't be able to do more until I get a new hip. Like your teaching.

Driver: Callaway Paradym 9 set to 10 Draw

3W Callaway  Epic Flash

5w Callaway Epic Flash
Hybrids: 4-5 Epic Flash    
               6-7 Big Bertha 

               7 Ping G430 played as an 8 

Irons: PXG Gen4 XP 9-GW

Wedges: PXG 0311 52 56 degree Forged

Putter: Odyssey Rossie Pro 2.0 

 

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Love this thread. Only about 10 pages in as I struggle for time to read this due to running 2 jobs at the moment (day job and own business), but this seems to be the final piece of the puzzle for me. I had worked a lot over the last year on each aspect of my swing, take away, transition, impact position etc, to try and get a good swing plane and repeatable results. However, I hadn't realised how "armsey" I was on my follow through though, pulling them across my body. Now that I focus on just pulling my arms up after impact rather than up and left, my ball flight is better, contact is more consistent and I can focus more on my rotation. Had a quick 9 hole par 3 round at the weekend and have never hit the ball more accurately or consistently.

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> @NoTalentLefty said:

> I've been looking at your stuff now for a few years. One thing I feel by pushing the club away during the swing is the sensation of being freer to keep my right arm straighter during the swing. (Left hander). It makes me feel young again. Won't be able to do more until I get a new hip. Like your teaching.

 

Thanks! Yes the pushaway puts a stretch pressure on the lead arm which helps with maintaining the proper radius of the swing ,ie distance from left shoulder center to the clubhead.

 

 

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> @Hertsjoatmon said:

> Love this thread. Only about 10 pages in as I struggle for time to read this due to running 2 jobs at the moment (day job and own business), but this seems to be the final piece of the puzzle for me. I had worked a lot over the last year on each aspect of my swing, take away, transition, impact position etc, to try and get a good swing plane and repeatable results. However, I hadn't realised how "armsey" I was on my follow through though, pulling them across my body. Now that I focus on just pulling my arms up after impact rather than up and left, my ball flight is better, contact is more consistent and I can focus more on my rotation. Had a quick 9 hole par 3 round at the weekend and have never hit the ball more accurately or consistently.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

In the swing model I advocate, you never do anything with your arm muscles to move the arms during the forward swing.

 

The arms move through 3D space due to forces placed on them from a proper Pivot.

 

Hands go left in a vortex shaped arc right after impact: left or "in" and "up".

 

All from forces of the Pivot.

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> @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > @NoTalentLefty said:

> > I've been looking at your stuff now for a few years. One thing I feel by pushing the club away during the swing is the sensation of being freer to keep my right arm straighter during the swing. (Left hander). It makes me feel young again. Won't be able to do more until I get a new hip. Like your teaching.

>

> Thanks! Yes the pushaway puts a stretch pressure on the lead arm which helps with maintaining the proper radius of the swing ,ie distance from left shoulder center to the clubhead.

>

>

 

Sir,

It looks obvious on the LPGA tour may be for the slower cadence. Do or did you find that as well?

I

Driver: Callaway Paradym 9 set to 10 Draw

3W Callaway  Epic Flash

5w Callaway Epic Flash
Hybrids: 4-5 Epic Flash    
               6-7 Big Bertha 

               7 Ping G430 played as an 8 

Irons: PXG Gen4 XP 9-GW

Wedges: PXG 0311 52 56 degree Forged

Putter: Odyssey Rossie Pro 2.0 

 

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> @GungHoGolf said:

> Super-relevant Gears 3D analysis of lead shoulder adduction angle and depth at top of pro driver swing:

I've read the majority of the thread but skipped from about page 90-140, as it tended to be rather repetitive.

Namely, folks challenging the prevailing wisdom and being met with the familiar refrain "read the thread - you just don't get it".

Personally, I've tried the drills described and had some lightbulb moments, but I'm quite sketpical of a lot of golf instruction to be honest, for the primary reason that it is product sales, after all.

That said, I recognize all the time and effort displayed by JW here and clearly the majority of feedback here is positive and folks have seen genuine improvement.

 

A bit curious though why the video quoted here from #4195 wasn't discussed. It appears there is at least some arm across the chest at the top of backswing.

 

 

 

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I have had a lot of questions lately about the short game, power and mental game videos that are in production.

Mental game videos target release date is July 15 for the first of three 2.5 hour videos. Then the Power Swing/Driver distance video for end of August. Short game videos later in the Fall, likely around mid October.

I do not offer a video that deals with that most difficult of all golfing problems - the Yips. The reason is simple - it is not possible to self-cure the yips via a video or book. It takes real-time coaching - preferably in person with me if you have severe yips.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Jim,

A few years ago, I started looking into your swing ideas, I even bought the Great Shot Manual. At some point however, I went back to the “throwing the arms across the chest” style swing. Due to my lead knee having issues with my current swing, I am looking at other options again. I was experimenting on the range the other day and was making some swings that reminded me of the feels I had while trying to learn some of your swing ideas. The swing was easier on my knee, which is what I am after, but as it seems is the case every time I make a swing change, I started leaving the club face slightly open. Which generally leads me back to my old swing, super strong grip and swinging across my chest. But on the positive side, distance at least seems comparable to my old swing, and I am pretty sure that is with me not being quite as efficient as I can be due to tension in my arms.

Anyway, what I would really like to know, can I pursue this swing concept without worrying so much about the exact angles? The search for the perfect golf swing has become exhausting for me. I need a swing right now that I can stop thinking about. I just want to turn away from the target with my arms going up, then turn towards the target with my arms going down then up in a free wheel type state, albeit, I would like some consistency and the shot shape I desire. This seems the easiest on my body and mind.

With that said, do you think I can get along with your swing ideas, or do I need continue my search?

 

Thanks Jim

 

In the bag

Driver: Taylormade Sim2 Max 9*

4w: Callaway Mavrik Sub Zero

Hybrid:  Apex 19 3h 20*

Hybrid:  Apex 19 4h 23*

Irons: Callaway Apex CF 19 5i-AW

W1: Vokey SM7 54* S

W2: Vokey SM8 60* L

Putter: Swag Handsome Too

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Jim, i've been working on your swing theory over the last few weeks. I seem to be getting a good takeaway with flat left wrist at the top. And also can initiate the downswing with the shoulder tilt (in slow motion at least). However, i'm hitting weak, slicey, spinny shots and losing a lot of distance. I'm pretty certain i'm cutting across the ball. The only way i can stop this is if i completely abandon the flat left wrist/wrist mechanism that i've been learning and play for a huge hook. That straightens me out, with a touch of draw, but my follow through is a bit chicken wingy and still fairly weak shots.

Also, i seem to have to try and hammer the ball - the 'new' swing with the flat left wrist seems like there's no power in it. But i've read that the feeling should be of effortless power.

Another thing is that my practice swings are beautifully smooth and free flowing yet i dont get that feeling with my proper swing with a ball. I'm pretty certain that i am ball bound to some degree.

 

Sorry theres a lot to digest there. I'd like to get a swing lesson from you via skype, can you give me details? Thanks Jim.

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> @trilerian said:

> Hello Jim,

> A few years ago, I started looking into your swing ideas, I even bought the Great Shot Manual. At some point however, I went back to the “throwing the arms across the chest” style swing. Due to my lead knee having issues with my current swing, I am looking at other options again. I was experimenting on the range the other day and was making some swings that reminded me of the feels I had while trying to learn some of your swing ideas. The swing was easier on my knee, which is what I am after, but as it seems is the case every time I make a swing change, I started leaving the club face slightly open. Which generally leads me back to my old swing, super strong grip and swinging across my chest. But on the positive side, distance at least seems comparable to my old swing, and I am pretty sure that is with me not being quite as efficient as I can be due to tension in my arms.

> Anyway, what I would really like to know, can I pursue this swing concept without worrying so much about the exact angles? The search for the perfect golf swing has become exhausting for me. I need a swing right now that I can stop thinking about. I just want to turn away from the target with my arms going up, then turn towards the target with my arms going down then up in a free wheel type state, albeit, I would like some consistency and the shot shape I desire. This seems the easiest on my body and mind.

> With that said, do you think I can get along with your swing ideas, or do I need continue my search?

>

> Thanks Jim

>

 

I always make the same answer to these kinds of questions - you need a lesson! As I have said from day one on this thread, the track record of golfers using self-directed "searching" "try this, try that" trial and error golf swing learning based mainly on ball flight results and pure swing theory is almost always doomed to fail.

You need clarity about the swing theory which you can only get from a dialog with a good teacher, and then you need feedback about what objectively your body and club motion are actually doing, which also takes the experienced eye of a good teacher.

I would love to answer your questions directly but only way to do that is for me to see and study your swing on video, talk to you about your goals, time for practice, etc ie stuff that can only happen in a lesson context.

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> @PJ72 said:

> Jim, i've been working on your swing theory over the last few weeks. I seem to be getting a good takeaway with flat left wrist at the top. And also can initiate the downswing with the shoulder tilt (in slow motion at least). However, i'm hitting weak, slicey, spinny shots and losing a lot of distance. I'm pretty certain i'm cutting across the ball. The only way i can stop this is if i completely abandon the flat left wrist/wrist mechanism that i've been learning and play for a huge hook. That straightens me out, with a touch of draw, but my follow through is a bit chicken wingy and still fairly weak shots.

> Also, i seem to have to try and hammer the ball - the 'new' swing with the flat left wrist seems like there's no power in it. But i've read that the feeling should be of effortless power.

> Another thing is that my practice swings are beautifully smooth and free flowing yet i dont get that feeling with my proper swing with a ball. I'm pretty certain that i am ball bound to some degree.

>

> Sorry theres a lot to digest there. I'd like to get a swing lesson from you via skype, can you give me details? Thanks Jim.

 

Yeah, exactly right, only way to answer those questions is a lesson as my previous post explained.

Webcam lessons are explained in detail at our site www.balancepointgolf.com. I use Hangouts mainly, for webcam. You send me a video of your swing to study prior to meeting live on the webcam, then we go over my results together in the lesson. We can see each other and I can show you the corrective drills and exercises and some of the model swing theory. PM or email me if you would like to register for the lesson.

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Saw you out there working at Quail Valley on Thursday doing a 1 on 1. Didn't want to interrupt your lesson to say hello. I'm sure I'll see you again since I'm marshalling there now and recently retired. Good to see you back in Portland!

 

Titleist TSi3 9* B2T2 Tensei AV Raw White / Cobra SZ Tour 3W Tensei AV Blue 15* / Cobra F6 Baffler Matrix Red Tie 18.5* / Maltby KE4 TC 22* / Maltby TS1 IM 5-GW Nippon Modus 120x / Taylormade Hi-Toe 54*/60* / Cobra Supernova

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> @DFinch said:

> Saw you out there working at Quail Valley on Thursday doing a 1 on 1. Didn't want to interrupt your lesson to say hello. I'm sure I'll see you again since I'm marshalling there now and recently retired. Good to see you back in Portland!

>

 

Thanks, D!

Feel free to stop by to say hello anytime.

That day was I was working with a new student suffering from short game yips.

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  • 2 months later...

Dozens of pages to describe a few motions that one could demonstrate in literally minutes. This is hilarious. No wonder so many golfers never get better. Obsessed with every minute detail, to the point of paralysis. Even when it is crystal clear, there is over analysis and endless clarifications.

 

This instructor seems like a very kind man, and seems to know his stuff. What is amazing that so few grasp the simplicity of it all.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

O*M*G! This is the real deal folks. Jim should be a knight of golf for this stuff; it's incredible.

 

When people talk about feel vs real and all that, this is it! It literally feels like clubs gonna brush the crown of your head and your literally going to swing way out past the ball past 12 oclock and miss it completely.....but then you compress it! ??? Just commit to this completely and thank Jim later.

 

I think uncovering the illusion is best shown from above:

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

My backswing is the same as this. It always feels like the club never gets behind me. I differ though on this pivot. Once I get the club to the top I start down with my arms almost dropping the club on the back of the ball. My body just reacts to this automatically. I get great compression and a lower ball flight with penetrating irons.

I have no tilt or side bend, which leads to massive back injuries. The spine was not made to twist this way. I get great distance and have played to a low handicap my whole life with one swing. Never have I changed it. 35 years of golf and I have never had a hint of a back injury. Everything feels stacked and level at impact.

 

Please stay away from the side bend. It leads to a lot of health problems with the back. a post above mention that Jim had a bad back. Ask Tiger about side bend. He has stated his goal with his swing is to eliminate as much side bend as possible.

 

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> @"Jim Waldron" said:

> > @true8 said:

> > Didn't read through the entire thread and was searching through youtube for videos. Does anyone have good videos for the down swing and how to begin it?

>

> My Module Four on the Pivot covers that issue, along with Module Six.

 

Jim.....when will you be in Palm Springs this year?

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  • 1 month later...

Here are my upcoming teaching locations/dates: Oahu - February 26-March 15. Palm Springs - March 31-April 9. Dublin, Ireland - May 1-4. London, UK - May 6-10, May 15-17.

Oahu and Palm Springs are Private Custom Golf Schools, Dublin and London will be a mix of small group (maximum of five students) public golf schools and Private Custom Golf Schools.

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It is not at address. My address position is much more upright. With a high chest. It promotes a easy arm swing. With my ass more under me it also causes the hips to naturally move back away from the ball, making room for my arms. The straight back address position causes a more steeper shoulder plane on the way back. It also cause the hips to move into the ball on the downswing. Since they are already back with the straight back position at address. They really have nowhere else to go but forward on the transition or downswing. That causes guys to stand up and impact to create room. My swing is more old school. I'm a hands and arms player. My body just reacts naturally to the swinging of my arms. It is really not taught this way anymore. Most modern teachers, teach more of a twisting or turning of the hips to start the downswing or some type of squatting motion.This creates a lot of pressure on the lower spine. When you see the pictures of people who at impact have there hips already wide open but there upper body is still behind the ball it causes a huge right side bend that puts a lot of pressure on the spine.

Both types of swings will and do work. It is my opinion that most of the younger guys on tour are going to suffer quite a bit as they get older. Tiger is a perfect example. He stays much more level now. High right shoulder and he has eliminated all the pressure in his lower back.

I can't really explain it the way I want and have no pictures. I just know that my swing works for me and I feel it is the best way to avoid any type of injury. I'm also 56 now and my body just will not work the way the swing is taught now. I'm not a teacher or claim to know how anybody else should swing. I hate swing debates. There are ten different ways to swing a club. I know my swing very well and have looked at all the different swings out there. The one I have had my whole life is what I know and what works for me. I know when it goes bad how to fix it.

I'm afraid of back injuries. I have seen to many guys I know suffer with back issues and it has and does affect their whole quality of life. I'm not willing to pay that price over a game.

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