"A+" for drama, HFB!
I did not say rule 19 pertains to everything else, you did. Rules 18.x pertain only to a Ball potentially Lost or Out of Bounds
Purpose of Rule: Rule 18 covers taking relief under penalty of stroke and distance. When your ball is lost outside a penalty area or comes to rest out of bounds
By the principle of "lex posterior derogat legi priori"
One might similarly ask "where in the rules is "unplayable" defined". The lack of a specific definition, along with the specific wording of the rules, leaves the definition up to the individual player. And the fact that there is a significant penalty (every stroke lost is significant) associated with unplayable ball relief brings me to the very logical conclusion that a player who takes relief has honestly determined that the ball is lying in a sufficiently difficult position that such relief is appropriate. If it were free relief, that conclusion might be different.
Home is Reston, Virgina, with regular visits to Southern Pines, NC
What does your question have to do with what I wrote? Doesn't matter, the Rules specifically allow the player to make that honest judgement, and the penalty stroke insures that the decision isn't taken lightly. Nobody but a fool voluntarily gives up a stroke unless there's a good reason for it.
But you've never told us where within the Rules of Golf that the term "unplayable" is defined. Certainly you have your definition, but the Rules specifically give me the authority to use my own definition, with no limits at all. The Rules have said, in effect, that as long as I accept my stroke penalty, I'm being honest.
But the former is specific to a situation, the latter applies generally.
I move that LICC be DQ from this discussion on the basis of clear violations of 1.2, in that he has been repeatedly intellectually dishonest. (Or at least lacks self-awareness to the point of failing to act with integrity and thereby requiring disqualification.)
18.1 defines a procedure that is allowed at any time. That's what it does. Its existence doesn't render any other rule irrelevant, especially considering those rules allows for other options of relief in addition to stroke and distance. And since it form the basis for 18.2, another rule isn't making it irrelevant.
@LICC “Explain how given your approach that Rule 18.1 is not rendered unnecessary. This all only makes sense if you think the USGA rulemakers are stupid in how they draft the rules.”
Rule 19 is only invoked for a ball that has been found. 18.1 can be invoked at any time...including a ball you haven’t looked for (meaning, that ball is not considered to be lost yet).
A helpful link :
Motion is seconded. Won't do any good, tho. He's going to die on that hill.
The ball I described is NOT lost.
A ball can be not lost and not found at the same time.
There is no interpretation of 19 that makes 18 useless. Rule 19 allows for 3 different relief options, one of which is defined in 18.1.
You're beat on his one. Move on.
If the player doesn’t announce a provisional, he has put a ball into play under 18.1. There are situations where the person would do this on purpose. I know I have.
"Tufts said it is expected that the reader know it is the character of the lie that makes a ball unplayable." Did Tufts define this? Do the Rules define this? Has anyone besides you defined this?
Tufts said (correctly) that the evaluation and eventual decision to treat a ball as unplayable was completely up to the discretion of the player. He says, accurately, that its impractical to define the conditions that make it unplayable. Tufts says the definition of unplayable is a matter of opinion, that the player may declare the ball unplayable regardless of the actual nature of the lie. Tufts also said that it was important when deciding what penalty applied to unplayable lie relief that the penalty MUST be enough to ensure that a player only take relief when appropriate. There is not a single word in that section that suggests any decision the player arrives at is in any way dishonest.
And your example, where its "easier" to drop a ball back rather than play it backwards, you've essentially said that there is some kind of difficulty in playing the ball. If that difficulty is significant enough to cause the player to accept the penalty of a shot, he's honestly determined that it is, in his opinion, unplayable. Completely within the rules, and completely in accordance with Tufts' guidance.
And I see no problem at all with stating something twice, in different sections of the rules. This makes it a whole lot easier to find.
Not them. Just you.
Rule 14.6 guides you on how to play from where the previous stroke was made. This can happen in cases other than in stroke and distance. The Purpose heading of 18 defines the Stroke and Distance penalty, 18.1 defines a procedure that is allowed at any time. Neither of which are rendered irrelevant by another rule. The burden of proof is on you.
Which one do we eliminate? 17.1d(a) says you can use stroke and distance relief for a ball in a penalty area. 18.1 says you can take stroke and distance relief any time, AND provides some clarifications and limitations. 19.1 says you can take unplayable lie relief anywhere, and 18.2 says one way of taking unplayable lie relief is using stroke and distance. I think its better to leave all three in place. That way, no matter whether our ball is in a penalty area, lost, OB, or in a difficult spot, we'll always find the stroke and distance option described in the section of the rules we look at. Completely logical to me.
The spot of the ball must be located in order to take either back on line or lateral relief. Otherwise you have no reference point.
I can say without reservation that you, LICC, are the most clueless person with respect to the Rules of Golf that I have ever encountered. (I suspect I speak for others here, also.) Here's an idea for you. Exile yourself from the Rules folder until you speak with the USGA and are satisfied with their positions. When you've done that, come back and see us.
You keep saying it has no limit, but it does. I never said 18.1 is never required.
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