Hitting "players" clubs better than G.I. clubs?

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  • RP40RP40 Members  141WRX Points: 123Posts: 141 Fairways
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    "As a 13 handicap I've played CB/MB irons for the last several years. Ball striking in general hasn't been my weakness. My issues have been 1) hitting a decent amount of GIR's"

    Um, if your ballstriking was so good logic would deem that you'd hit more GIR.

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  • TigerInTheWoodsTigerInTheWoods Members  2562WRX Points: 1,624Handicap: 5Posts: 2,562 Titanium Tees
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  • Ger21Ger21 Members  374WRX Points: 167Handicap: 10.5Posts: 374 Greens
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    The first line in your link does state that "Ballstriking has many definitions".

    Posted:
    Bridgestone Tour B XD-7 9°- HZRDUS Red 65 6.0
    Bridgestone Tour B XD-F 15° 3w - HZRDUS Red 75 6.0
    Bridgestone Tour B XD-H 2H 18° - KBS Tour Prototype 85 S
    Nike VR Pro Blades 3-PW Dynamic Gold AMT Tour White S300 Onyx
    Yururi Tour 56 & 60, Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400 Onyx
    Grips - Iomic iXx
    Scotty Cameron Oil Can Newport
    Srixon Q Star Tour (testing)
  • TigerInTheWoodsTigerInTheWoods Members  2562WRX Points: 1,624Handicap: 5Posts: 2,562 Titanium Tees
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    Indeed. But generally I’d say it boils down to hitting target. Most of the time in golf you’re trying to hit a fairway or green. Hitting a couple greens a round doesn’t equate to being a good ball striker by that definition.

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  • RodCRodC Members  373WRX Points: 38Handicap: 12Posts: 373 Greens
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    IMHO, if you start practicing with a blade, eventually you will become a good hitter. This type of clubs rewards you when the ball is well hit and its addictive, it will also let you know when you hit it bad; not only bad shots, but your hands will hurt.

    Now, the SGI irons will help a lot and mute all the deficiencies one may have. This maybe a perfect club for people that just want to have fun in golf and play decently. The thing, I don’t like, from GI irons is that you won’t learn much from them... they’ll make you happy hitting a 7i - 190 yds and you can keep it that way.

    When I changed from M2 to MP18SC, I struggled at first with distance. I was forcing my swing to achieve the same distance, until I understood that there are many things different, including the loft, and accepted the distance that the MP offered... then it all became better. It’s maybe two clubs shorter (in club Stamped number) but it’s consistent and best of all, very very addictive when the ball is hit correctly.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Alta CB, X Shaft
    TM 2016 M2 3 Wood / Callaway EFSZ 3 wood 
    TM SLDR 4 & 5 Hybrid
    5-PW Mizuno MP-18SC - Steelfiber i95 (since Nov 17) - on the bag
    5-PW TM P-790 Modus 3 105 Stiff (since March 18) - on the bench
    4-PW Mizuno MP-20MMC KBS$ Stiff - since dec 19) - in transit 
    Cleveland RX2 50/08
    CBX 54º Wedge, CBX 58º Wedge.
    SM6 54º & 60º on the bag

    carbon-putters-revolver.png Carbon Ringo Putter
  • Ger21Ger21 Members  374WRX Points: 167Handicap: 10.5Posts: 374 Greens
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    >>IMHO, if you start practicing with a blade, eventually you will become a good hitter.


    Probably for some, but not for everyone. Some people just don't have the natural ability to swing consistently enough.

    Posted:
    Bridgestone Tour B XD-7 9°- HZRDUS Red 65 6.0
    Bridgestone Tour B XD-F 15° 3w - HZRDUS Red 75 6.0
    Bridgestone Tour B XD-H 2H 18° - KBS Tour Prototype 85 S
    Nike VR Pro Blades 3-PW Dynamic Gold AMT Tour White S300 Onyx
    Yururi Tour 56 & 60, Dynamic Gold Tour Issue S400 Onyx
    Grips - Iomic iXx
    Scotty Cameron Oil Can Newport
    Srixon Q Star Tour (testing)
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  • NessismNessism To measure is to know... Members  19526WRX Points: 1,604Posts: 19,526 Titanium Tees
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    If any of you guys advocating small players clubs for mid-cappers live in the Los Angeles area by Torrance please PM me. I'd love to watch you hit balls using different types of heads. I'll even build a couple of GI clubs with shafts you like so we can do a proper comparison. I truly would like the opportunity to see someone that scores in the high 80's hit a small CB better than a G410 (for example).

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver 60S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 5 wood w/Aldila Rogue Black 70S
    Cobra (Lexi blue) F7 Hybrid w/Aldila Kuro Kage 80S
    Ping G410 irons w/Recoil 95S
    Ping Glide 55/60 wedges w/Recoil 110S
    Ping Anser/Arna putter - the "real deal!"
  • Golf4liferGolf4lifer Members  600WRX Points: 135Posts: 600 Golden Tee
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    Can you be a good iron ball striker and not a good driver/tee shot ball striker? If a golfer has trouble off the tee and has to chip out or take a penalty their gir will suffer, but does this mean they are a bad iron ball striker?

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  • RodCRodC Members  373WRX Points: 38Handicap: 12Posts: 373 Greens
    Joined:  edited Jan 14, 2020 4:31pm #190

    Well, I think it’s for everyone. If you start with a blade (players irons) you will eventually, after lots of practice, master it.

    Of course it will take less effort to do it with a SGI club.

    But effort and practice is what makes a difference in golf, not so much SGI irons.

    In my case, I learned to play golf in the 80’s and it was with my dad’s Wilson irons ... I learned and left golf for 30 years ... I started again 4 years ago, with M2 irons, I hit them far and good; but then I changed to Mizuno MP18SC and those made a significant change.... it was hard in the beginning, as I was forcing the swing trying to achieve the same distance as M2’s, but then when I accepted the new distance of this clubs (maybe two clubs less) I found consistency and feel.

    I can say the MP’s showed my errors in a clearer way, Which allowed me to work more specific into the bad things.

    PS: I got a set of G400 irons after the M2, but I couldn’t hit them at all. Maybe it was the shaft, but in my mind it was that I started playing with those blade Wilson so many years ago. The MP’s where after a long fitting, where I tested a lot of GI irons and it was better for ME the smaller sole irons.

    Posted:
    Ping G400 Alta CB, X Shaft
    TM 2016 M2 3 Wood / Callaway EFSZ 3 wood 
    TM SLDR 4 & 5 Hybrid
    5-PW Mizuno MP-18SC - Steelfiber i95 (since Nov 17) - on the bag
    5-PW TM P-790 Modus 3 105 Stiff (since March 18) - on the bench
    4-PW Mizuno MP-20MMC KBS$ Stiff - since dec 19) - in transit 
    Cleveland RX2 50/08
    CBX 54º Wedge, CBX 58º Wedge.
    SM6 54º & 60º on the bag

    carbon-putters-revolver.png Carbon Ringo Putter
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers  6910WRX Points: 1,235Handicap: 3.9-9.3-7.7 (Health issue)Posts: 6,910 Titanium Tees
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    Sure you can but in that case one wouldn't typically say "Ball striking in general hasn't been my weakness. My issues have been 1) hitting a decent amount of GIR's".

    He'd qualify with something like "I hit my irons very well but have a lot of trouble keeping my tee ball in the fairway".

    Posted:
  • rblmp32rblmp32 Lefty Boomers  4361WRX Points: 118Posts: 4,361 Titanium Tees
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    I played blades for many years and got myself down to a 2 handicap at my best. Iron play was never a strong point of my game, but I always hit the ball better with blades than GI irons. I tried GI a couple times and just could never get used to the bigger heads and wider soles. I’m a steep, big divot taker for reference. I just could never dial in the GI clubs until a couple years ago when I picked up a set of I-20’s. I hit them well enough to bag them. I don’t track my stats so I don’t know if my GiR’s went up, but I felt like I got better results out of my bad swings with them and stuck with them for that reason. I can’t work the ball both ways with them, but I honestly hit them mostly just straight because I don’t ever hit big curves. Now after a 2 year layoff from the game, I’ve decided to go back to blades just for the sheer enjoyment of playing them. I’m not sure what my results will be, but I know I’ll enjoy looking at them over the ball more than the I-20’s.

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  • hdgolf44hdgolf44 Members  359WRX Points: 90Posts: 359 Greens
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    It may be technique, yes, but that's my experience from my own game.

    You could put a Ping G in Tiger's hands and he could do what he wanted with it under any tree or lie, doesn't mean everyone else can.

    Posted:
    Taylormade M4 (N-9.5*) -- w/ Mitsubishi Diamana BB (X-stiff)
    Cobra King LTD 3/4 (14.5*)  w/ stock Aldila Rogue Black (stiff)
    Titleist 913F (19*) - Mitsubishi Diamana BB S+ 72 (stiff) or TNT Survivor 19* hybrid
    TaylorMade RAC LT 3-iron (21*) - Stiff
    TaylorMade Tour Preferred - (4-PW) - DG S300 (stiff)
    Titleist Vokey SM6 - 54* M-grind
    Callaway Mack Daddy - PM Grind 60*
    Odyssey Stroke Lab One - w/ SuperStroke Traxion Tour 1.0

  • chippa13chippa13 Members  2536WRX Points: 348Posts: 2,536 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  #194

    An SGI doesn't magically turn a poor path slice or hook swing into a straight ball. It helps with off-center hits and the weighting/offset can help with squaring the face. It won't magically reward a bad swing with a good shot.

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  • RP40RP40 Members  141WRX Points: 123Posts: 141 Fairways
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    Posted:
  • Marco ColoMarco Colo Members  711WRX Points: 223Handicap: 18.5Posts: 711 Golden Tee
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    I see it as I would need to show that I can hit G410 better than an a CB, not the other way around. However your point is noted

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  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers  29686WRX Points: 2,641Handicap: 0.0Posts: 29,686 Titanium Tees
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    I don't really agree with this. I can hit a G410 iron and know where on the face i made contact.

    These threads sometimes seem incongruous , people argue that SGI's won't help you shoot better scores but also make it sound like it's virtually impossible to hit anything other than a long and straight ball with an SGI. If all you had to do is pick up a G410 7 iron and you'll hit it 190yds and straight....than people would shoot better scores.

    The clubs add value in the margins but nothing more than that. SGI's will tell you where your misses are if you are good enough to know what good contact feels like

    Posted:
    Cobra F9 w/Fujikura Atmos TS Black 7
    Cobra F9 FW w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Ping G400 Crossover 20 w/KBS Tour Proto Hybrid
    Ping G410 4-SW w/S300
    Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 60 w/S300
    SGC NorthWood center shaft 400g
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  • groovyduveygroovyduvey Members  32WRX Points: 24Posts: 32 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jan 15, 2020 12:23am #198

    I play blades. Small heads, thin soles, traditional lofts (36* 7 iron...) and I'm currently a 12.4 handicapper.

    I started playing them when I was a ~20 handicapper.

    For me, playing blades is like driving a stick shift vs driving an automatic car.

    They offer me a feeling of more control, enjoyment/satisfaction, and confidence. I just love seeing my blade behind the ball. Even my bladed 3 iron - I love it. Not once have I ever actually thought 'oh, I wish I had one of those mega huge hollow strong lofted shovels' after a bad shot. A bad shot is just a bad shot, and hopefully a learning opportunity. However, when I pure one and the shot shape is exactly how I wanted, that one shot can literally make my entire round. Even if my score is not great and I only properly pureed 1 or 2 shots in 18 holes, I'm satisfied. That's how good it feels. Seriously.

    Also, without a doubt, playing blades has slowly but surly transformed my swing over the last 7 years I've had them. In a good way. I descend on the ball more now, take a divot, forward shaft lean, compression, all that good stuff. I've be forced to learn to strike the ball this way because you have to in order to get any kind of consistency with thin soled blades. I also fully understand the feeling of how to work the ball high/low/left/right, which I think I do credit to all my experience playing blades. I think if I never started playing blades id still be a sweeper who just visualizes straight shots - which just seems so boring now. Effective and logical, but boring... kinda like an automatic car.

    Anyways. I personally don't think handicap should have much to do with determining what iron type you go with. For me its whatever makes you feel more confident and helps you enjoy the game more.

    Posted:
    Post edited by groovyduvey on
  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers  29686WRX Points: 2,641Handicap: 0.0Posts: 29,686 Titanium Tees
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    if anyone is ever in Montreal and wants to see someone flight balls high or low, shape shots....and do all of this with an SGI club (a feat more difficult than the 4 minute mile apparently)

    Just let me know! I will be happy to leave your mouths agape with awe and wonder

    -"How did that ball not just go straight and 190yds????"

    ....But alas, the magician will not reveal his secrets, only leave you with a sense of childlike bewilderment

    Posted:
    Cobra F9 w/Fujikura Atmos TS Black 7
    Cobra F9 FW w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Ping G400 Crossover 20 w/KBS Tour Proto Hybrid
    Ping G410 4-SW w/S300
    Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 60 w/S300
    SGC NorthWood center shaft 400g
  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers  6910WRX Points: 1,235Handicap: 3.9-9.3-7.7 (Health issue)Posts: 6,910 Titanium Tees
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    "IMHO, if you start practicing with a blade, eventually you will become a good hitter."

    Why ?

    Eventually you will become a better striker of the ball, but "good" ? Where's that guarantee ?


    "This type of clubs rewards you when the ball is well hit and its addictive, it will also let you know when you hit it bad; not only bad shots, but your hands will hurt."

    As Jeff said just above, there's nothing magical about a blade that lets one know where he missed the ss on the face. I've got my shovels and I pretty much guarantee you that when I miss the SS I can tell you where I hit it on the face as well. It's a matter of experience, not clubhead.

    Posted:
  • RP40RP40 Members  141WRX Points: 123Posts: 141 Fairways
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    12-handicap?

    Yeah, my mom could drive a stick - but even she would admit she didn't do it well.

    Posted:
  • groovyduveygroovyduvey Members  32WRX Points: 24Posts: 32 Bunkers
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    MtIJeff and nszguy,

    I don't think anyone is saying you can only shape shots with blades or that hitting blades will make you a better ball striker, guaranteed. I hope they aren't saying this at least? obviously we know that is wrong.

    But I feel, for me at least (may not apply to all), as someone who started playing 'players irons' / blades at a high handicap, they did give me the kick in the pants I needed to become a better ball striker and learn the art of controlling ball flight. Its just how it went down for me, 10 years with 'GI' irons and no real changes to swing or ball striking, then as soon as I went to blades everything just started to change, and it is not a coincidence.

    Is it because of the blades? yes, and no. The club head shape itself is not why things changed for me. There is no technical engineering that can explain it. It was all in my head. Its because I found equipment that gave me confidence, and inspired me. Equipment that made me WANT to get better and learn to see things in a new light.

    Maybe one day I'll care more about getting 2 stokes less per round than the pure enjoyment I get out of playing my blades and ill switch to a GI iron, but for now, I play for fun and blades are just more fun. To me. And having fun makes me want to play more and playing more helps me get better.

    Posted:
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  • MtlJeffMtlJeff MontrealMembers  29686WRX Points: 2,641Handicap: 0.0Posts: 29,686 Titanium Tees
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    Hey man, thanks for not taking what i said too personally. Look i totally support you playing whatever you want, 100% agree that guys should play what gives them the most enjoyment. We aren't pros and we are all mostly playing this game for fun.

    I just get defensive a bit when i think people are saying you can't play real golf with SGI's (shaping shots, knowing your misses etc)

    I'm happy you are enjoying the game and enjoying your clubs!

    Posted:
    Cobra F9 w/Fujikura Atmos TS Black 7
    Cobra F9 FW w/ Matrix Black Tie 80
    Ping G400 Crossover 20 w/KBS Tour Proto Hybrid
    Ping G410 4-SW w/S300
    Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 60 w/S300
    SGC NorthWood center shaft 400g
  • groovyduveygroovyduvey Members  32WRX Points: 24Posts: 32 Bunkers
    Joined:  #204

    I drive a stick. I stall it occasionally. Sometimes I accidentally start it in gear and it lurches forward( this is particularly embarrassing). I get nervous when I have to start going on an uphill. But its more fun to me and I just prefer it over an auto. and I feel it makes me a better driver because I'm just more engaged and connected to the task at hand.

    Good analogy for blades?? :)

    Posted:
  • WristySwingWristySwing Members  838WRX Points: 480Posts: 838 Golden Tee
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    I too would also challenge this and I know you are right. I have done many, many fits and I can not say that I have a single instance where someone who needed GI irons (and that too can be subjective) didn't hit them better than a thinner players type iron. There may be subtle feel differences or shape preferences that the player is more interested in keeping aligned to their preferences, but to say "no I hit players irons better than GI irons" is a lie. I distinctly remember a scenario where a guy took up golf with Miura baby blades (and got down pretty good to about an 8 or so with them) and came to get fit. I gave him 585 to try and he literally buttoned every single one and gained 20 yards on average (partly loft, partly proper shaft, partly "forgiveness"), I just couldn't get them to spin enough for him. If I could have gotten them to spin properly, and I tried everything, I wouldn't have let him get anything else.

    I wish I could somehow download all of my fitting data I've done over the past several years into a database in R and run the standard deviations regarding distance, peak height, spin, and contact. I have all of the data regarding lofts on each of their fitting profiles, along with their handicaps, that I could easily access. It's just a matter of having the time to do it. But it would be unarguably be probably the first study that I know of looking at whether GI irons actually "help" or not, across a wide variety of swing speeds, handicaps, age ranges, and shaft material. Maybe if I have some spare time this spring/summer I will sit down and sift the data.

    Posted:

    Taylormade SIM 9* - HZRDUS Smoke Green 65 | Callaway Mavrik SZ 13.5* and 18* - Aldila Rogue White 130 MSI 75 | Ping G410 20.5* and 24.5* Hybrids - Project X Even Flow Black 85 | Mizuno MP-20 HMB 5-PW (2* weak) - KBS $-Taper 120 | Vokey SM8 Raw 54.12D & 60.06 Low Bounce K Raw - Project X LZ 6.5 | Bettinardi BB Zero Custom - Stability | Tour Velvet Midsize Cord | Srixon Z-Star Xv Yellow

  • Ovalles593Ovalles593 Members  22WRX Points: 15Handicap: 22Posts: 22 Bunkers
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  • groovyduveygroovyduvey Members  32WRX Points: 24Posts: 32 Bunkers
    Joined:  edited Jan 15, 2020 1:32am #207

    My girlfriend plays SGI irons. They are the first ones I've hit in years. I actually find them easier to shot shape than my blades, I think because they are a bit more forgiving of hitting it slightly thin or fat... which I tend to do when trying to manipulate club path or AoA. However, the offset puts me off a bit and does take a few shots to get used to it.

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    Post edited by groovyduvey on
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  • nsxguynsxguy Just anudder user FloridaMembers  6910WRX Points: 1,235Handicap: 3.9-9.3-7.7 (Health issue)Posts: 6,910 Titanium Tees
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    "I play for fun and blades are just more fun. To me."

    I'm not sure I agree with your circular reasoning but THIS is all that matters.

    Posted:
  • wfrogge1wfrogge1 Members  1282WRX Points: 218Posts: 1,282 Platinum Tees
    Joined:  edited Jan 15, 2020 3:52am #209

    Forgiveness between blades and SGI irons is not as much as some think until you get into the lower lofted irons in the 5-3 iron range. With that said the magic that some say comes when you play blades and become a better ball striker is total FUD. The only thing that makes you better is practice regardless of the club type. I am in the 5-10 handicap range and shoot the same scores with blades as I do with SGI irons but I feel a lot more comfortable with blades or cavity backs. That comfort to me means more than the almost unmeasurable forgiveness I get from SGI irons. For some I bet the opposite is true and they just feel more comfortable with SGI's. In the end who cares :) play what you want

    Posted:
  • groovyduveygroovyduvey Members  32WRX Points: 24Posts: 32 Bunkers
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    i forgot to mention the best thing about playing with blades as a mid HCer.... when I chunk one or hook one into the trees I can just blame it on the blades ;) def not my swing, nope.

    Posted:
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