What in the world is "Pope of Slope" talking about here? (new WHS par adjustment)

[nsxguy]

Spoken like a true high handicapper. LOL

Let's face it. Golf is the ONLY MAJOR sport where a team/player has a better score than their opponent(s) and still loser,,,,,,,, because of handicaps.

Rightly or wrongly, if a player shoots 75 and loses to a higher handicapper who shoots 80, the better player is going to think, if not say, he got screwed. I'd say it's human nature.

[nsxguy]

Thanks. To you and the others. I would guess it's exactly that.

[davep043]

I was just about ready to object to your stereotype, then thought again about my own stereotyping. I don't think EVERY low-handicapper would feel that resentment, but probably a majority would.

To your earlier point, although bowling may be less of a "major sport" than golf, its one of the very few where a player competes basically against himself. Its also one of the few where handicaps can approximately equalize competition between players of differing abilities, so its one of the very few where a good player rolling a good score can lose to a lesser player rolling a lower score but with a higher handicap.

[ThinkingPlus]

Not me. I assume that I will not win net unless I play great which typically means somewhere in the mid to high 60s. Frequently even that might not do it on a benign weather day and large field.

[jonnymc44]

Touche! I want all the wins and all the glory!

[Ty_Webb]

I don't. I used to play a bunch of net club events at my club in the UK. I very rarely won anything even if I played particularly well. Never bothered me. The sandbagger hat doesn't really seem to exist over there nearly as badly as it does here. Everyone knows each other and everyone is basically trying to get their handicap down. The only people trying to get their handicap up are the ones whose game has declined and their handicap isn't catching up to them quickly enough (the CONGU system takes a long time to catch up with a decline in ability). Anyway, a gross event is where everyone tries to shoot the lowest score and whoever shoots the lowest score wins. A net event is about how well you do relative to your ability level. If I have a really good day in a net event and I don't win because someone with a higher handicap had a better day (relative to their normal) then good job to them.

[davep043]

I'd like to believe I have the same attitude, if my good day (relative to my ability) gets beat by someone having a better day (relative to their own ability), good for him (or her). Although no handicap system can be perfect, I believe it does a pretty good job at giving each individual a chance.

[jonnymc44]

I think that is the general consensus in UK with handicapping being difficult to sandbag. Playing so low relative to your handicap deserves every credit at whatever level you're at. Perhaps even more so for an improving golfer with a higher handicap.

[Deceptively Short]

Also don’t forget that the vast, vast majority of handicap counting scores in the UK are in competitions, so if you want to sandbag you have to pay for the privilege (albeit entry fees are low) however that is a bit more of a hassle than tapping 2 fictitious digits into a phone.

[Ty_Webb]

Yep - and you have to wait for them to come around. If you were so inclined, you could spend a couple of weeks playing twice a day and have an entirely new set of 20 scores in your calculation without that limitation. 20 rounds under the old UK system you could go up at most 2.0 on your handicap. In the US system, you could go from a 0.0 to a 24.0 in that timeframe. It would take a lifetime to do that in the UK.

[davep043]

Not any more, Ty, with the new soft and hard caps.

[nsxguy]

Bowling is exactly the reason I included "major".

But yes, handicapping is to make the playing field a bit more level so players of far different abilities can actually compete.

That doesn't mean the better player doesn't harbor just the tiniest bit of resentment, even though he keeps it to himself, when he loses to a lesser player because of the handicap. It's simply human nature, as in "I busted my butt to get to play this well and I lose to some lazy guy who sits behind his desk every day, never even practices his putting for goodness' sake, and who's 10 shots worse than I am."

Anyway, I expect Sui was, hopefully goodnaturedly, just poking a little fun at better players. I just thought he deserved to get a bit of the needle back. LOL Certainly no offense intended.

[Ty_Webb]

Well - you learn something new every day! Thanks

[nsxguy]

And I'm about to see how the soft cap works.

Prior to today's round I was 8.6, exactly 3 full strokes above my starting 'cap in the new WHS. Today's diff was 12.8. Round getting knocked out was 6.2 and round that will replace it is 10.7.

New 'cap s/b 9.1, 3.5 above starting index thereby exceeding the soft cap of 3.

I'll let you know tomorrow what it says,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Shilgy]

You went up that much in one month or less? Holy cold streak!

[nsxguy]

Actually 2.5 months playing twice a week. I hadn't changed my 'cap on my profile for a while. Tried to but the edit wouldn't take. LOL

Had open heart surgery for a valve replacement in mid-Sept. Wish we'd have gotten to play a round together when I was escaping Hurricane Dorian in Mesa.

Started playing again mid-Nov. 4.9 when I started playing again. 5.6 at the beginning of WHS and been going up ever since and lately, the good diffs from before the operation having been dropping like flies.

Been playing the forward tees for quite a while and only started moving back to the Whites early last month. Best diff since coming back has been 6.4. Most have been around 10-12.

Initially lost 40 yards off my driver and 25 off my 7 iron. I'm about back to 10-15 off the driver and about 10 off the 7 iron but I'm having an unusually hard time hitting the middle of the face of my irons. Driver I'm hitting as well as ever (just a bit short still).

Ahhhh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Shilgy]

Glad to hear you are on the mend. I am a bit over a year now from my ankle replacement and getting closer all the time to the performance of a decade ago.

It is definitely a process. Hang in there and the game will return, sounds like you are on the right track.

[Colin L]

While it is correct that the CONGU system of automatic handicap increases is far too slow to respond to declining play, the Handicap Committee is required to ensure handicaps reflect members' playing abilities. It should do so by using the review processes built into the system and accelerating the increases required by the declining player. If it does not and relies entirely on the automated system, it is not properly discharging its responsibilities.

That being said, by carrying such reviews and dealing with the problem of a goodly number of declining players being seriously under handicapped, I provoked the wrath of some who resented their handicaps being raised. I even had my ears bent by one or two who claimed I had "spoiled" their golf and put them off entering competitions. These were players whose net scores in the few competitions they did enter were some 15 to 20 strokes above the Standard Scratch Score [Course Rating].

[Newby]

Tell me about it. When CONGU lifted the limit a few years ago from 28 (for men and 36 for women) to 54, my committee were reluctant to raise players above 28 because the members complained about the shame of having a ladies handicap. These were players struggling to get round in 40 over.

[Ty_Webb]

Yeah I hear you. My dad is trying to get his handicap up. After a year or so of him asking, they finally upped him by 2 shots. Should probably have been three times that. Even if they do make those adjustments it still takes far longer than the US system. He doesn't really play competitions anymore because of exactly that. It's a shame (although I'm sure his blood pressure is better because of it).

[nsxguy]

 

Neither hubris nor denial is limited to "the young".As promised - the indication of a soft cap applied. (Sorry about the size)

My best 8 total 72.9. Divided by 8 =9.1. Reduced by .2

 

[davep043]

Sorry to hear of your difficulties, and good luck moving forward.

Apparently the soft cap calculation is working the way it is supposed to. You've said that your HI, as calculated without the cap, has gone up by 3.5. Applying the soft cap, the actual increase should be 3 + (x/2), where x is the increase beyond 3, or 0.5 in your particular case. This calculates to 3.25, and you're showing 3.3 more than your previous low Index.

[HatsForBats]

Yeah, I have heard the argument about golf being the only 'real' sport where they use handicaps. Problem is every sport you probably consider Major, besides golf, is a full team sport. Our low handicapper, who does very well overall in the net games, was complaining about it recently. When he didn't like the list of 'not real sports' we brought up he then brought up tennis. It seems to me, after a brief internet search, that even tennis has had some use of handicapping for casual competition. I think people give poker a pass because they think it is luck rather than skill.

 

Look, our low handicapper could dig his heels in and insist on gross competitions. The end result is he would mostly be playing with himself. Doesn't sound like much fun. Another thing that doesn't sound like much fun to me is fleecing my golf friends just because I am better at golf than many of them.

 

Lastly, think of one of your major sports played casually but for competition. Say a football game with family and close friends. How are you going to divide up the teams? Are you going to allow most of the good players on one team while the other team is vastly out skilled? I'm sure there are exceptions but I think in general you would handicap your 'major sport' game by dividing up the good players, fair players and poor players. Even though each player does not have an index in the sport at hand you are likely giving them one in your mind. The end result is usually teams that are somewhat evenly skilled overall. ie. Handicapped.

 

[nsxguy]

I'm not quite sure what point you're making but yes, most major sports are team sports.

And yes, on the amateur/casual level one tries to make teams that are fairly equal.

I wouldn't however call that a handicap per se and certainly not in the same manner as a golf handicap. There's no effect/handicap on the actual score in those pick up games.

But what's in a word ? If you consider choosing up sides a handicap, fine with me.

[Augster]

Going ABCD at a pickup game is handicapping. Why not play AABB vs. CCDD? Because CCDD will get killed. (Basketball, baseball, football, gross golf etc. etc.)

Golf is the greatest sport because the handicap system allows all skill levels to compete equitably. Not equally. Equitably still skews competitions toward the better player as a reward for being a better player.

In the summer I usually play off 5. I play with guys in my group that are usually 4’s and 3’s. They always want to play gross for our group team games. Golf is an hierarchy. I can beat any of those guys on any given day, BUT, I know over time I’m going to lose to them. Paul is a better player than I am. Darryl is a better player than I am. Etc. etc. Yet our caps are within 2 of each other.

My friend, a 17, got mad when I told someone else I was better at golf than he is. I was like WTF? One of the benefits of the handicap system is to know who is better than whom. If you’re a 10, don’t take a straight up bet with a 4. He’s better than you and it’s a loser over time. You may win once in a while, and it’ll feel great when it happens, but you’ll lose the VAST majority of the time.

Summertime I’m a 5. My friend is a +1. I played against him probably 20 times last year and I beat him gross 3 times. Once on my home course, twice on a neutral course that I had played many times and he hadn’t played. I never beat him on his home course. If we played straight up, what exactly would be the point? So I could collect the 3 times I beat him? If we play $10, both ways, I win $60 but lose $340. Net -$280. Sounds like a lot of fun.

[dubbelbogey]

Tennis really does not have an analog to handicaps at the amateur competitive level (at least here in the US - dunno about other regions).

Here in the US, players are rated into tiers. Generally, most players only play real competition within their tiers. While a brave few venture out into open competition, where the rating is not used, this is relatively uncommon for lower rated players to play open tournaments. Therefore, it is relatively uncommon for a less-skilled "3.5" player to play in a competition against a more skilled "4.5". If they did play each other, there are no "points given" to make up for the difference. Any time this sort of match is played, the 4.5 player is going to walk away the winner virtually 100% of the time. The 3.5 player has essentially no chance. What's the solution there to winning more? Get better. Period.

Frankly, I'd greatly prefer this approach over the traditional golf handicap system. But, it's not what we have. Such is life. I know some events are run into handicap flights (ranges) and everyone within that flight plays straight up. I'd like to see more of that.

Then again, there is much less tradition in tennis for money games at the amateur level. Almost none, in fact.

[Ty_Webb]

Handicap system allows me to have a decent game with my dad. That wouldn't work with the flighting system.

[dubbelbogey]

It is an interesting and somewhat unique phenomena in golf where it is often the case the better player that doesn't "win" (in general, over statistically a significant number of competitions).

That's just not very common elsewhere. As I mentioned above, skill-based tiers that are used in many sports are not the same as there is little cross-tier play. Moreover, within a given tier there is always another level of stratification where there are obviously a section of teams/players that are better than others - yet no compensation is given to the less skilled player/team within that tier.

Yes - there are a few other competitive events where golf-like handicapping exists, but they are relatively uncommon, for sure. I'm not saying that this tradition in golf is bad, but it's just not my general preference. It clearly has a long-standing place in the sport.

 

[davep043]

"It is an interesting and somewhat unique phenomena in golf where it is often the case the better player that doesn't "win" (in general, over statistically a significant number of competitions)."

The thing is, the better player does win slightly more often in individual competition with a lesser player. The margin may be pretty small, but its there. In large field competitions, I've read in this forum that each group players of relatively similar ability wins in rough proportion to their representation in the competition. To me, this is an excellent system, every player has an approximately equal chance of winning.

On the other hand, I can understand those who say there's no reason for me to try to improve, if it won't increase my chances of winning. Yet I don't know a single player who doesn't want to improve. I guess I'd liken this to the top player in a tennis tier. Why should that player want to improve, and become the worst player in the next tier up?

And now that I've typed that, I'll suggest that maybe the last page (or more) of posts has largely wandered well away from the Original Topic, the WHS and the (CR-Par) term. I'm certainly guilty, and will endeavor to keep closer to the topic going forward.

[Shilgy]

^^Dave, I will keep the thread jack going for one question...you stated” the better player does win slightly more often in individual competition with a lesser player”. Is that still as true? We previously had the 0.96 multiplier as a reward for excellence. Does the 8 of 20 cover that instead of the 10 of 20? As a somewhat lower cap at 3.8 it drives me nuts when a higher cap crows about getting a net 2 on a par 3. Is he really that proud about parring a par 3? The better player should have a slight advantage. Otherwise what would be the point of striving to improve?