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I think drivers are finally “topped out”.


butterysnaphook

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I’ve hit every new driver that’s been made for the past 10+ years. I have witnessed some leaps in performance through the years, but I’d say since around 2017 we have been “officially” topped out. A lot of drivers now have a combination of optimized ball speed, aerodynamics, low spin, sound, looks, and forgiveness, whereas you used to have to sacrifice something. My Ping G400 outperformed or matched every 2018-2020 offering that has been released, but it seemed like before 2017 you could always find a small improvement here or there every year. The drivers this year are all great but it seems like they’re all so good that they can’t get much better since everything is already optimized, not to mention the new distance report which will ensure they don’t get any longer. Thoughts? Or did you all gain 17 yards this year just like last year?

IMG_5706.HEIC.pdf

IMG_9875.HEIC.pdf

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I gained 5mph ball speed from Srixon z785 to Mavrik SZ.

Srixon Z 785 9.5 Atmos Tour Spec Black 60X
Srixon Z F85 15 Atmos Tour Spec Black 60X
Srixon Z U85 18 Steelfiber i110 S
Srixon Z FORGED 3-9 Steelfiber i110 S
Cleveland RTX4 46 Steelfiber i110 S
Cleveland RTX4 Forged 50 Steelfiber i125 S
Cleveland RTX4 58 Steelfiber i125 S
Cleveland Huntington Beach Soft Premier 11S

Bettinardi QB6 DASS High Polish
Srixon ZStar XV Yellow

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I agree OP. Comes down to getting properly fit to hopefully gain a couple of yards, but it's all about the miss hits. Dispersion is now king with the new offerings.

Ping Hoofer Lite

Mizuno ST Max 9.5*

Mizuno ST Max 3/7W

Mizuno ST Max 5/6H

Mizuno 243 7-GW

Mizuno T24 54/S, 58/D

Mizuno OMOI #2

Mizuno RB Tour

 

Super Bowl LII Champions Fly Eagles Fly! 🦅

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Drivers "topped out" 15 years ago when most of the OEMs offered 460cc heads with max COR faces on the sweet spot. You can squeeze out a few more yards thanks to having them manipulate the heads' COG for higher launch and lower spin and computerized fittings but that pretty much is it. When the G400 came out I did a fitting on it. I tested my R7 Superquad which was my gamer at the time and it performed neck on neck with the G400 with slightly better dispersion.

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10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft (Stiff flex)
Titleist 990 (3-PW) with stock Dynamic Gold in S300
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts (Regular Flex)
2011 Adams Tom Watson signature wedges in 52 and 56 degrees with stock steel shafts (Player's Grind)
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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I agree, but I think we have only just reached that point this year or maybe last year. Comparing, for example, the ball speeds on a Titleist 917 driver versus a Titleist TS3 driver, the differences are significant, and the 917 is only a couple of years old (one product cycle). But I think starting with the Ping G400 series, the Callaway Rogue/Epic, the TaylorMade M5/M6, we're pretty much at the end of the ball speed road.

Now it's about looks, shaping, CG preference, shaft combos, and MOI.

Unfortunately, the marketing hype on new drivers is going to get worse, not better.

Waiting for TaylorMade to roll out a TRUSS driver next year.

Titleist TSR3 08.75 – AD DI 65x

Titleist TSR2 14.50 – AD DI 75x

Titleist TSR2 17.25 – AD DI 85x

Titleist TSR2 21.00 – AD DI 95x

Titleist T150 4i-6i – X100 Tour

Titleist T100 7i-9i – X100 Tour

Titleist SM09 Pw-Lw – S400 Tour

Titleist Pro V1 – White Hot OG5

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Apparently I gained 20 yds when i went to graphite shaft. 10 yds for solid ball. 5 yds for balls with titanium. 5 yds for multicore ball. 5 yds for deeper dimples. 5 yds for hexagonal dimples. 10 yds when metal driver. 10 when bubble shaft. 10 when titanium face. 10 when bigger head. 10 when all titanium head. 10 when all graphite head. 10 when titanium/graphite. 10 when COR grew. Dont start me on aerodynamics and inertia generators.

Why aren't I on tour?

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I agree with this. The last big jump I saw was in 2017 with my Epic SZ. I’ve tried every new driver since, and it’s still in the bag. Just can’t find anything that beats it. And I still think it’s one of the best sounding drivers out there.

Callaway Epic SZ 9* GD Tour AD TP 6X
Titleist 915 Fd 15* Aldila Rogue Black 80 S
Titleist 909h 19* Aldila Voodoo S
Mizuno MP 18 4-6 SC 7-P MB KBS Tour 120 S
Titleist Vokey SM7 50*, 54*, 58*
Scotty Cameron California Monterey 1.5, Toulon Las Vegas H7

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*hardest eye roll humanly possible*

 

They maxed out the Chocolate Chip Cookie a million years ago when Nestle got with the Toll House Inn. Now its just marketing. I mean, sprinkles?!? Peanut butter swirls? Turbolators? Come on. Any idiot knows all that marketing is garbage. I walk down the cookie aisle at the store and just get madder and madder. Those scumbags keep trying to trick me, but I ain't biting. I'm going to go post on the internet about it so I get the positive chemical reinforcement of a bunch of other people agreeing with me that the chocolate chip cookie is maxed out.

 

What's that? You like sprinkles/turbolators on your cookie? LOL. What a stooge of marketing. Go on and waste your money. I'll be over here, busy being super smart.

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G400 Max 9* Ventus Red 5X, SIM Ventus Red 6X 

Callaway Mavrik 4 (18*) - AW (46*) Project X 5.5

Vokey SM4 50* SM5 56*

Cameron Phantom 5S

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This image from the recent USGA/R&A distance report (https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2020/distance-insights/DIPR-FINAL-2020-usga.pdf) says a lot about how driver distance has changed for handicap-level players over the past 20 years:

EN4I9OT5GP9M.png

Even looking the best players (below 6 hdcp) there is no general trend of driver distance increase since around the year 2000. Golf club marketing and advertising BS aside, this is what the data shows. (BTW, with all the hubub this report is getting about how distance is out of control, that can only be concluded as true for the professional and top competitive amateur ranks. The rest of have not really seen any meaningful increase, in general.)

Sure, any individual among us may have benefitted much more with some clubs they've been fit (or stumbled) into, but the data says there has been no overall increase in distance for us regular players (as a group) in any recent years.

 

 

 

 

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Instead of distance, it would be interesting to look at this same graph measuring dispersion or FIR hit as I believe this is where the improvements have been the past several years.

Titleist TSR3 10° Diamana ZF 60S
Titleist TSR2 16.5° Graphite Design Tour AD DI 7S

Titleist  818H1 21° Graphite Design Tour AD DI-95X

Srixon ZX4/ZX5/ZX7 MKII 4-PW Nippon N.S. Pro Modus3 Tour 120S

Cleveland RTX4 50° (mid), 54° (mid) TI DG S400

Cleveland RTX6 58° (low) TI DG S400
Byron Morgan DH89 34/350

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I made a significant gain when I moved to the EPIC SZ (original) from my older driver. But I have seen little improvement in all the next generations. I agree it would be interesting to see a dispersion or forgiveness comparison. Average distance may improving, but may be due to a better forgiveness in the average distances (better ballspeeds on off center hits)

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Ball speed of the center has been maxed out for a long time. Almost all the companies now have at 3 different models to optimize launch and spin for almost every kind of player. The final hurdle was keeping ball speed constant across the face, which pretty much has been conquered (though this is slightly more recent).

The only thing left to do is try to optimize MOI while keeping the spin low. I think with the all the makers having multiple models they've probably nearly achieved this for all but the most outlier of golfers.

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Because, like the rest of us, you got 20 years older. And most of us don't work out - much - if at all.

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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The whole USGA/R&A argument is BS. The big issue is that the Tour Players are now athletes and are bigger, stronger and fully capitalizing on the science on hitting it correctly.

I'd love to see them take 20 of the top Tour Players and give them a week with a Titleist Balata ball from 1995 (of course brand new) and I'd bet they would hit it just as far with their equipment. Especially their irons. But they won't do that because it would crush their argument about the ball going too far.

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Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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Yep... topped out least as far as the USGA & RA are concerned. Yet, powers to be claim there's a distance issue. Gota wonder who's poking the powers to be under the table?

Might one topic be related or a motivating factor for the other topic. And don't OEM company's need to keep producing equipment? As it stands, they've all but hit a wall with certain clubs. Shaft improvement is still viable, though. Aside from loft, shaft is said to be the engine behind distance, right?

I enjoy some yardage gain when I switched from 917 to TS2 driver and 4-wood, but mostly lowered dispersion. Both TS2 heads are fairway finders. Also both Ventus shafts appear to have contributed some yardage gain too. How much varies, depending on my bones, conditions and the ball.

 

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  • TSR2 10° Ventus Velo TR Blue 58S
  • TSR2 15° Talamonti PD80R
  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
  • SC/CA Monterey
  • DASH -ProV1x
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Fact. The record for the longest average drive distance on the PGA Tour is set by Hank Kuehne at 321.4 yards....in 2003 with his R510 TP

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10.5 deg Titleist 905R with stock UST Proforce V2 Shaft (Stiff flex)
Titleist 990 (3-PW) with stock Dynamic Gold in S300
Taylormade V-Steel 5W & 3W with Grafalloy Prolaunch Red shafts (Regular Flex)
2011 Adams Tom Watson signature wedges in 52 and 56 degrees with stock steel shafts (Player's Grind)
Rife Island Series Aruba Blade Putter

 

"Loft for loft, length for length, and shaft for shaft, the ball will go the same distance when hit on the sweet spot regardless how old the iron."

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All I can tell you is that I have not come close to reaching the ‘max’ performance on what my current driver. I need lessons to gains ‘17’ yards not another driver.

[size=3][font=comic sans ms,cursive]driver - Titleist 915 D3 10.5[/font][/size]
[size=3][font=comic sans ms,cursive]fairway - Ping I25 18 degree 5 wood
hybrid - Ben Hogan VKTR 19 & 23
Irons - Mizuno MP68 3-PW
wedges Mizuno MP-T5 50-58
putter - Ping Sigma G Doon[/font][/size]

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