2020 MGA Rules Quiz - Q4

[rogolf]

4. A player’s first stroke on a par 3 hole hits a tree and comes backward to rest in the teeing area. The

player addresses the ball and causes it to move. He doesn’t replace the ball and hits it onto the

green. He then notices that he played from outside the teeing area on his initial stroke. He tees

another ball within the teeing area and hits this ball onto the green and 2 putts. He picks up the first

ball. What is the player’s score for the hole?

A. 5

B. 6

C. 7

D. 8

 

[antip]

The first counting stroke is the stroke onto the green, ball is in play lying 3 (one stroke plus general penalty for playing from outside the teeing area). Player then abandons the ball in play and plays again from the teeing area under stroke and distance, holing out with a further 4 strokes (one of which is the S&D penalty). Total score 7, answer C.

[rogolf]

Given the MGA's history of devious questions and lots of general confusion around the "teeing area", you could well be correct. I took the more straight-forward approach. The stroke from outside the teeing area does not count, nor does any other stroke made with that ball, so the first counting stroke is the with the ball he tees and hits onto the green. With the two stroke penalty for his original mistake of playing from outside the teeing area, I get 5 strokes, or answer A. One of us will learn something about the teeing area when the answers are provided (if the answers are indeed correct!).

[antip]

Yes, this one is interesting.

What they have done very nicely is pose the following rather simple question: can you correct the mistake of playing from outside the TA without conscious intent?

 

 

[Mr. Bean]

I agree with Thom's answer C, based on the change in the Rules regarding moving a ball in the Teeing Area.

Thom: 'can you correct the mistake of playing from outside the TA without conscious intent?'

This very Rule took away one of those cases where a player was absolved from one penalty stroke when moving a ball in play on the teeing area, so I will say yes, you can.

[nelson906]

Very clear. I ask just for some help to understand bullet 3 on 6.2a where it is said that rule 6.2b applies to a ball "in play" on teeing area. Considering the teeing area peculiarities in rule 6.2b what is the meaning of such tiny clause? I am wondering if it were a way to replicate the concept of intentionality on teeing area already present in 14.2 and 14.3. Which other explanation to such clause could you suggest? Thks

[Sawgrass]

IMO that bullet says "in play" to make it clear that the freedoms of moving the ball and ground pounding and the like don't just exist when first teeing the ball up, but after it is put in play as well -- such as when a ball is almost missed but simply falls off the tee and stays in the teeing area.

[nelson906]

Thanks. Sorry if I expressed myself badly. The point is exactly the opposite. Apparently when the ball is not in play I cannot invoke 6.2b, like for a ball played outside the tee coming back on the teeing area. I cannot guess the consequences unless it demands for a conscious intent.

[Sawgrass]

I’m confused by your question (still). Are we in agreement that when a ball is hit from the teeing area and then bounces back and comes to rest again in the teeing area it is still “in play?”

[nelson906]

Sorry It Is a very confusing item for me so It Is pretty hard to express. The ball was played outside the teeing area so It Is not in play. I cannot apply 6.2b. I am wondering if I am obliged to a conscious act ti correct my mistake

[Sawgrass]

I'm sorry too, I'm legitimately trying to help. I now presume you mean that in stroke play, if a ball was inappropriately first struck from outside the teeing area, it is not in play. In this case the player is required to put a ball in play from inside the teeing area, and once he/she does so (with the intention of doing so) all the teeing area freedoms still apply. For instance, you can drop a ball with the intention of putting it in play, accidentally bump it, play it from that new location inside the teeing area without replacing it, all without penalty. (In match play a ball first struck from outside the teeing area is in play unless/until an opponent recalls the shot.)

 

If it helps, consider the definition of In Play:

In PlayThe status of a player’s ball when it lies on the course

 

 and is being used in the play of a hole:

A ball first becomes in play

 on a hole:When the player makes a stroke

 at it from inside the teeing area

, orIn match play

, when the player makes a stroke

 at it from outside the teeing area

 and the opponent

 does not cancel the stroke

 under Rule 6.1b.:When it is lifted from the course

,, except that it is no longer in play

 until it is holed

That ball remains in playWhen it is lost

 (even if it is at rest on the course

) or comes to rest out of bounds

, orWhen another ball has been substituted

 for it, even if not allowed by a Rule.A ball that is not in play

 

 is a wrong ball

 

.

The player cannot have more than one ball in play

 

 at any time. (See Rule 6.3d for the limited cases when a player may play more than one ball at the same time on a hole.)

When the Rules refer to a ball at rest or in motion, this means a ball that is in play

 

.

When a ball-marker

 

 is in place to mark

 

 the spot of a ball in play

 

:

If the ball has not been lifted, it is still in play

, andIf the ball has been lifted and replaced

, it is in play

 even if the ball-marker

 has not been removed.

 

[HitEmTrue]

6.2b also applies when putting a ball into play, to start the hole. Antip's answer in post #2 is proposing that is what happened in this question, without the player knowing that he had done so.

It makes sense to me. Nothing in the rules would suggest that he would have to verbally announce that "oh, now this is my tee shot." Or that he is required to move the ball, or put it on a tee.

 

[nelson906]

I try directly with the ruling. Q20 Mr. Bean ruling is my reference for a wrong ball and its continuity until the player discover his/her mistake.

In this case a wrong ball (played outside teeing area) come backward on the teeing area. Under 6.2a, last bullet, rule 6.2b is not the applicable rule.

The only applicable rule, obviously IMO, is rule 6.3c until the player discover his/her mistake. After that the player must correct.

My ruling therefore is 5 score.

[Sawgrass]

Why not 6.1b(2) for the first stroke from outside the teeing area?

[nelson906]

Under 6.1b(2) the ball played outside the teeing area is not in play and by definition is a wrong ball. 6.3c or 6.1b(2) are the same from my point of view.

The ball is not in play and a casual stroke from the teeing area do not count in playing that ball, because the teeing area has lost is magic status under 6.2a

 

[Sawgrass]

My point is that the first stroke from outside the teeing area gets a 2sp, I’ll not debate the rule number with you for now. The second stroke, from inside the teeing area counts since it was put In Play by definition:

• A ball first becomes in play on a hole:

» When the player makes a stroke at it from inside the teeing area,

 

. Then a new ball is put in play (unnecessarily) under stroke and distance. 7 total.

[Mr. Bean]

I hear what you say but I believe you are not on the right track here.

Playing of a wrong ball stops when the player corrects his mistake. In this particular case correcting the mistake means playing a ball from the Teeing Area. Isn't that what the player does when he plays a ball lying within the Teeing Area?

[nelson906]

That Is the point IMO. 6.2a says a wrong ball Is not on a teeing area

[Sawgrass]

The first shot was not taken from the teeing area. The second and third were.

[charli]

I hate these

[nelson906]

Thanks all. After two tries I have to accept I am on a wrong track as Mr. Bean suggestion.

I will remain with my curiosity regarding 6.2a meaning and consequences, but I am pretty sure I will survive.

[Newby]

#4 C Rule 6.1b(2); Rule 14.6

[FrazNic]

My interpretation is as follows:

A player’s first stroke on a par 3 hole hits a tree and comes backward to rest in the teeing area.  2 Penalty Strokes for breach of 6.1b(2)

The player addresses the ball and causes it to move.  As per 6.2a - His ball is not yet back in play as he hasn't commenced play of the hole and the Teeing Area rules in 6.2b therefore apply so no penalty for moving the ball.

He doesn’t replace the ball and hits it onto the green.  This is his actual Tee shot (1 stroke) and his ball is in play. No point debating intent - it's in play.

He then notices that he played from outside the teeing area on his initial stroke. 

He tees another ball within the teeing area and hits this ball onto the green and  As the ball lying on the green is In Play - this further stroke is regarded as Stroke-and-Distance - and as it related to the previous tee shot he was entitled to Tee the ball up as it was from within the Teeing Area - so 1 stroke & 1 PS

2 putts. 

In total we have:

1 Tee shot

2 Penalty Strokes - Wrong Place for initial tee shot

1 Stroke - and - Distance Penalty Stroke

1 stroke - re-teed shot in teeing area

2 puttsTotal 7 shots - what I fail to understand is why the MGA 2020 Answer Key only references: Rule 6.1b(2); Rule 14.6 - WHY IS THERE NO REFERENCE TO 18.1???????

 

Thanks.

 

[Newby]

deleted

[FrazNic]

Hah.. penny dropped 14.6 - Making Next Stroke from Where Previous Stroke Made .. ignore me, no need for specifc 18.1 reference...