Can't Stop Flipping

[flipwontstop]

Hi everyone! Long time listener, first time caller!

Swing sequence (FO, stills): https://photos.app.goo.gl/yC3JFpMAMv3vuvSJ7

Swing videos:

(Six swings, including some pre-shot practice, and slow-motion replays, both DTL [swings 1, 5, 6] and FO [swings 2, 3, 4])

I've been struggling forever with trying to fix my hands flipping over at impact. No matter what I do (and I've taken a lot of lessons), my downswing always looks fundamentally the same - and it has looked like this since I started making swing videos ~15 years ago. For whatever reason, I lose all my lag early and end up fully extending the club well before impact. By impact, the only way I can hit the ball is to flip my right hand under, so the clubhead is actually at or past my hands when I get to impact. When my timing is good, I can hit the ball pretty well. When it's not... I'm all sorts of inconsistent, rarely hitting down on the ball, etc.

I suspect that I'm doing something wrong right at the beginning of the downswing, but I can't figure out what it is. In my most recent attempt to improve this, I tried to focus on getting my right elbow in front of my right hip and turning my right forearm to the sky. It seems to look good in practice swings, but I haven't been able to incorporate it with a ball.

I've taken so many lessons, and this never gets better. I feel like I'm missing something fundamental about the golf swing. Something about how the body moves maybe? It feels like I need to rewire my brain to learn where to release the club. I suspect that it's actually something straightforward, and I've probably come across the solution dozens of times - it's just something that needs some really dedicated focus... if I only knew what it was. I'm hoping anyway.

Thanks!

[jholz]

I'm sorry you haven't received any responses thus far. Great videos and they definitely show the flipping of which you speak. I am certainly not a licensed PGA pro or anything, so take my comments for what they are worth. For the most part your swing looks great, and the problem occurs so quickly, that it is easy to miss.

 

What I see is a stalling of the hip turn through impact, obviously. The flipping is occurring to compensate for this - a means to square up the clubface and prevent you from hitting it to the right.

 

Now, the question becomes one of "why are your hips stalling?" For that, I think you probably need more expertise that I possess, unfortunately. Having said that, here's a good video that discusses the issue: stop flipping golf monte scheinblum - Google Search

Just for my two cents, I can't really see you doing any of the common faults that Monte talks about in the video. My guess is a failure to get the weight firmly on the lead foot in the downswing. As a result, your hips don't bump out towards the target to the extent that they should, which helps to clear the way for a full hip turn. Just a guess.

 

I also think you might get more hits on this thread if you post it in the general "Instruction" forum. In any event, good luck, and I thought I saw Mt. Evans there in the background.

[flipwontstop]

Thanks for the kind words and the analysis! I think you're definitely right about my hips stalling - I've seen my hip measurements compared to pros, and I'm way off in terms of how much they've turned at impact. Most recently, I've been focused on shoulder tilt and getting my right elbow into position, so maybe I can focus a bit more on trying to emphasize getting my hips around more. Maybe focusing on some separation between my lower body and upper body, and maybe that'll help me make some room to get my arms into position.

As an aside, I suspect I'm missing something important in my lower body downswing. In particular: The idea that there's a "squat" in the downswing and the feeling of pushing/driving off my left leg... both of those concepts are completely foreign to my swing. I was watching some videos on starting the downswing with a bit of knee separation - and I think that makes a bit more sense to me these days since I'm doing a better job with shoulder tilt.

I'll try cross-posting in the instruction forum if replies are light, thanks for the tip! And it might be Mt. Evans... You're definitely in the right neighborhood. I just never know which mountain is which!

[aggiegolfer21]

Two things. Make sure your right elbow is at an angle greater than 90 degrees at the top of your backswing and make sure it remains greater than 90 degrees through your downswing. Two, when the club is parallel to the ground in the downswing before the ball is hit (club is parallel to the ground and to your right side if you are facing the ball) make sure the angle of the leading edge of the club is parallel to your spine. These will help you stop flipping.

[flipwontstop]

Thanks ya'll. Definitely a few things to try if the weather ever warms back up here!

[Londoner]

That grip looks so weak that you have to flip to try and square it.

[Konsta]

A good drill would be to try and bow your lead wrist at impact and try to hold your right wrist back as long as you can. This makes your face more closed at impact and your body compensates this move my dragging your hands forward towards the target, leading to forward shaft lean and hitting down on the ball. Both of these things help to eliminate flipping (forward shaft lean makes your hands/arms more sync'd up and hitting down on the ball reduces the force of the club head after impact, preventing flipping)

[Londoner]

First paragraph, simply wrong.

[Londoner]

Well now you're arguing something else, which I never said or infered.

I never questioned that people can play well with an unorthadox grip. In fact my father played to 4, right handed, with a left handed grip.

What I'm questioning is your assertion that how you hold the club has very little bearing on the swing. It has. You may compensate for it but to say it has little or no bearing on the swing is nonsense. Pure physics and a little knowledge of anatomy would tell you that.

[Londoner]

Physics and anatomy are not affected by the grip you have that the wrong way round. If you have a super strong grip vs a super weak grip, especially when the hands don't match, the shoulder / arms triangle restricts what you can do. Because we have joints, rotator cuffs and the like.

In addition the starting grip (hold if you must) has a massive influence on plane. Because of those pesky joints and skeletal restrictions.

As a student please feel free to ask questions. It's how you learn. (If you have an open mind)

Eg. A typical example.

 

[dpb5031]

In most humans, hands want to return to an anatomically neutral position as they approach and cross the Sagittal plane. Grip orientation, especially lead hand, has a MASSIVE influence on the clubface through the impact zone, and consequently how the body (pivot) and arms need to work to return the clubface squarely to the ball.

[Londoner]

Thank you. The voice of reason.

[dpb5031]

Obviously hands are our connection to the club. The orientation of the hands on the handle hugely influences everything else that happens in the chain reaction of the golf swing. Proper pressure so as to hold the club securely while still allowing wrists to move freely is critical.

On the backswing (turn-away), hands/wrists set in conjunction with arms maintaining structure of the triangle. In downswing hands can be completely passive if arms are relatively connected, wrists remain supple, path is within acceptable parameters, and pivot motion is sound with no stall. Laws of physics will ensure release (squaring of clubhead) with no intent required if the other prerequisites are met. The most efficient swings are effectively a turn and a turn. Everything else is along for the ride.

Disclaimer: individual swing thoughts and intents may vary

[nitram]

Search herein for the "Punisher Drill". Do what it says and you will find a way to stop flipping.

[dpb5031]

All things being equal (no compensations) left hand grip orientation controls the clubface. If arms are relatively connected to pivot, the stronger the grip, the faster/more aggressive pivot required. Weaker grips require a more active (intentionally hand controlled) release to square the clubface

[Fuscinator]

Your grip is sooooo weak. For an experiment, try holding the club with an Azinger-like strong grip. It’ll feel weird as heck and might be viewed as a bandage, but it might break you out of the flip.

[Londoner]

Exactly my thoughts. With a grip that weak how can you get square without "fliping"?

[dpb5031]

...to my point

[Londoner]

Yes. At least 3 of us in accord. One nay sayer.

[dlow206]

Wow, that video was a total eye opener for me. I totally interlock too deep. I need to try the proper grip, i have been struggling with issues and have been trying to get the right grip. I went from stronger to less strong and that helped a lot but this video showed me that my right hand is wrong

[Londoner]

Shawn advocates quite a strong right grip, which I'm not sure suits everyone.

This video is relevant to all interlocked though. (In my view). It certainly helped me and a couple of pals.

Shawn has some real gems. I really connect with his teaching.

[dpb5031]

I do not understand your point...especiallyrelativeto my previous comments. Can you please clarify?

[Londoner]

Sorry. I DONT know what YOU'RE talking about or WHAT your point is.

Are you equating Jacks grip to the ridiculously weak grip of the OP in the video?

Give me a clue.

[Londoner]

You continuously deliberately evade the point in reference to the OPs super weak grip and why he feels the need to flip.

Could it be that due to his grip he's never Square (however he swings,) and he knows it? Could he also know that no matter how hard he pulls the butt or uses his left side he's never going to square it without somehow getting his hands back to their original extreme position?

Tiger just let's it flow. Agreed. But that's only because all the preceding actions put him on plan/path/square.

If he started from where the OP does his swing would look very different. As would his hand action.

[dpb5031]

Sorry Lane, but your syntax is confusing. Do we really disagree?

I thought my points were fairly simple to comprehend.

In my view, if certain prerequisites are met, no need to consciously do anything with the HANDS to square the clubface; forces of physics will take care of that...

In a connected swing, strong(er) grips require a fast(er) pivot. Weaker grips require that the arm/hand assembly "catch-up" so as to square the face... so a slower pivot or even a stall can work. Some players do this quite effectively...just a matter of repeating it; ...possible, but not necessarily most efficient

In either case, squaring of the clubface is not/should not be intentional with hands. Barring anomalies, forces of physics ensure the clubface will return to square through impact if the previously stated prerequisites are met and the player allows it to just happen.

Still, strength of grip, particularly lead hand, has a significant influence on timing and sequencing of the whole deal

I'm still a bit lost on whatever point you're trying to make?

 

[Londoner]

You keep saying the same thing. I'm not arguing against it.

However with the OPs super weak grip you couldn't do what your middle paragraph says without breaking or dislocating a wrist or shoulder.

Thats the point.

[dpb5031]

I don't think we disagree.

Don't read into my "lead hand" statement. I was just differentiating left from right in a right handed player, not specifying its role in the swing.

I actually like your (Gerry's) description of how the hands should work.

My point is simple; in good swings if certain prerequisite conditions are met, there need be no conscious effort to square-up the the clubface. Forces of physics will take care of that if you just keep everything moving. No manipulation required...

but...

the orientation of the hands on the handle hugely influences how it all works.

[nitram]

Your pics are uploading and displaying just fine.

[dpb5031]

I appreciate your enthusiasm and your admiration of Gerry Hogan, but you've yet to explain your previously stated opinion regarding the grip, or the way a player holds the handle? You claim that it has little bearing on the rest of the swing? I disagree wholeheartedly and I've explained why.

As previously stated, human anatomy dictates that hands generally want to return to an anatomically neutral position as they approach the sagittal plane in the golf swing. With that in mind, I agree with you and Gerry that we have to kinesthetically train ourselves to allow the clubhead to release properly. I'll further agree that it's typically not intuitive for most.

Regardless, if you're holding the club in too weak an orientation, the clubface will tend to be open at impact without sufficient suppination of the left forearm and often a flip to square it up. If you're holding the club in too strong an orientation, all else being equal, the clubface will tend to be more closed without a conscious effort to open up the body/pivot aggressively or otherwise inhibit the natural release of the clubhead through impact. You don't have to inhibit the release by restricting or holding on, just rotate more aggressively and keep the handle going around so that the toe of the clubhead doesn't pass the heel through impact.

In my view, the simplest and most efficient swings do not require extreme compensations one way or the other through the impact zone. If the components match up, i.e. grip, pivot speed, connection, plane, etc., a player can just let it all go with no conscious manipulation of the clubface required. Forces of physics will ensure that it returns to square through the hitting zone if you get all the other stuff right.

Undoubtedly there's a range of acceptable parameters and there have been highly successful Tour players with a variety of grip, pivot and release styles. David Duval, Zach Johnson, Daniel Berger, and Azinger have some of the strongest grips among pros, with Azinger and Berger having the most unusual/unorthodox release styles. Brian Gay, Woody Austin, and Jerry Kelly are a few who come to mind with weak grip styles. It's easy to notice that the bodies of the stronger grip players are much more open at impact (by necessity) than the bodies of those with weaker grips.

Bottom line: grip matters!

[Kanzas_Anthony]

@flipwontstop Hello! I love to see these kind of videos of us trying to get better. My two cents, I read some of the responses and seems like a lot of talk about hands and not much talk about the legs. I would love to see you get these knees bent as if you were going to jump( we don't jump or do much of anything athletic with straight legs) then hit a million balls starting from the transition, keep the knees bent all the way through impact. For me, if you bent those knees and got that left hip to feel like it is rotating backwards( like feeling like the left back pocket is perpendicular to the camera DTL as soon as possible and for a while not worry about the hands, looks like you have that part down ;) Keep grinding. Also read this book--SEE AND FEEL THE INSIDE MOVE. Bend those knees! Keep grinding.