MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[2moreTerpz]

i don't belong on a least technologically savvy list. I just choose to not engage in lots and lots of things that other people choose to engage in. Like this AM i was unaware of which printers in the office printed in color. you don't print POs and contracts in color

[Kent01putt]

Same as 2moreterpz for for me

[vtnerf]

Kent and 2more.......

[dsc123]

Rory comes out very much against the new golf league. Just as I was starting to think players were backing it.

 

"The more I've thought about it, the more I don't like it,'' McIlroy said at Chapultepec Golf Club, site of this week's WGC-Mexico Championship."The one thing as a professional golfer in my position that I value is the fact that I have autonomy and freedom over everything I do," he said. "I pick and choose -- this is a perfect example."Some guys this week made the choice not to come to Mexico. If you go and play this other golf league, you're not going to have that choice. I read a thing the other day where it said if you take the money they can tell you what to do. And I think that's my thing, I've never been one for being told what to do, and I like to have that autonomy and freedom over my career, and I feel like I would give that up by going to play this other league."For me, I'm out. My position is I'm against it until there may come a day that I can't be against it. If everyone else goes, I might not have a choice, but at this point, I don't like what they're proposing.''And McIlroy didn't see that happening."I think it is very split at the moment,'' he said.

[TheCityGame]

"i don't belong on a least technologically savvy list.""same"

Says the two guys whose user names changed when the website forgot their email addresses.

[vtnerf]

On the Rory thing...

I get what he's saying. And I understand the fear. But seriously Rory, you don't think you could take a week here or there? It's going to be more money with fewer events anyway...so "better" than it is now. Guys like Tiger want to compete. Guys like Rory want to win. And when they can't, they turn their nose up at things. The Premier golf league will be the top tier guys every week.

[dcmidnight]

How do you figure it will be top tier guys? Guys would have to give up their tour membership to join the new league - PGA Tour has already said they wont let them do both. Don't see many/any "top tier guys" doing that. Maybe more "guys who cant make enough money on the PGA tour" - but definitely not top tier guys.

Commissioner also already said the PGA purses will be up to $10M per event with the new tv contract.

I actually found what he said to be refreshing and very well thought out, he's no dummy. Kind of wish more guys would come out and quit straddling the fence about it.

[vtnerf]

I actually found what he said to be refreshing and very well thought out, he's no dummy. Kind of wish more guys would come out and quit straddling the fence about it.

I will give him that. He took a stance.

I was assuming top tier because of the guaranteed money aspect. Hard to pay Vaughn Taylor $60k just to show up. But what do I know. The entire thing is like a would you rather for the PGA tour guys. But one of the options is to continue to make a million on the tour they are a part of now and not change a thing. (Except the purses.)

[dsc123]

Of course the Tour says they won't allow dual membership, but do you believe that for a second? Do you think they're going to kick Tiger Woods off tour? Or any of the top guys for that matter? Let alone all the top guys. No chance. It would be suicidal. Its just a threat. And frankly, it exposes the Tour as weak and terrified.

And while $10m purses are nice, that won't happen unless they get a bigger TV contract. We assume that will happen, but no network is going to shell out that cash unless they're sure this PGL thing is quashed.

I have a lot of respect for Rory's position. The guy values things other than money. Or at least in addition to money. Its no surprise that Phil, who'll take any appearance fee or stock tip he can get, seems more willing to jump on this.

 

[ceejay81]

This new golf league has just about 0% chance to succeed. It's just not going to happen.

I've been wrong about many things in my life. This doesn't seem like it will be one of those things.

[dcmidnight]

The Tour exposed itself as weak and terrified. LOL. Yeah I absolutely believe it - the new league holds zero cards. Zero. None. You think money is a card for guys who make millions or tens of millions every year - to go play in some Clown Show Team League? You think the sponsors of most of these players want them playing in the CSTL - or on the tour with the big tv contracts? Again - you might get B level guys who dont mind giving up their tour cards but there's just no reason for the top...50 or 100 to do it.

This weekend is a perfect example. They already have exclusive, high(er) purse events - they're called WGC events. No cut. Oh and $10M purses not happening(?) - its an $11M purse this weekend. And I dont think I've heard of a third of the guys on that list as it is. Players purse is $15M this year I think?

They already have it pretty great. This has less than 0% chance of succeeding. Smells more and more like the ultimate vaporware troll-job. Unless someone just wants to burn hundreds of millions or billions of dollars just to spite the tour, this isnt happening.

[dcmidnight]

 

[FAbb]

Once Doug kicks Reed off the tour, like he should've done way before now, he'll be available to play in the new league.

[dsc123]

Yeah, I think the big dog looks weak and scared when it reacts to competition by threatening its members instead of exuding confidence that it remains the best product available to its members.

 

I am not saying the new league is going to happen. Its definitely a long shot. However, it sounds like a lot of players are giving it serious consideration. https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2020/2/19/premier-golf-league-latest-players-and-agents-convene-at-riviera-phil-predicts-hell-have-decision-by-the-players I found that surprising and it made me think there's a non-zero chance of it working. I could see it being really attractive to European players who already do a lot of traveling. I think its much more likely that the players and the networks use it to leverage something more out of the Tour.

 

I also did not say $10m purses won't happen. I said they won't happen without the new TV deals and the networks will want to see the PGL quashed first. It would expect that they'll know soon enough whether enough of the top players are interested.

 

The PGL promises $240m over 18 events. That's $13m on average. And there's only 48 players. That's enough to make these guys stop and think, apparently.

 

[tungstenplug]

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Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[baddomes]

Why are some of you still pretending that these guys aren't motivated by money? Rory passes up fees, but he's still not out there playing in the Sanderson Farms Championship

 

The GD PGA tour ranks players based on the money they earn

 

Billy Horshel was going to miss his first kid's birth because he was winning the $10MM FedEx Cup (kudos to his wife for being smart enough to be (edit: that part doesn't read well) on board with that plan).

 

I think it's funny that Phil was willing to walk away for the same reason at Pinehurst, and now he's the biggest cash ho of them all.

 

The best golfers aren't picking tournaments based on how close they are to their houses. The PGL has a chance to exist. I don't think it'll last, but I wouldn't be surprised if it holds events.

 

 

[baddomes]

I hope the director of the Sanderson Farms Championship didn't get too sad reading tungstenplugs and my posts back to back.

[SullGolf]

This gets at some of what Kostis was talking about his interview. The PGA Tour could be a much better product by changing some things. But having a better product wouldn't necessarily make them more money.

Namely, I'm with tungsten in that there are just too many events. It saps your attention and dilutes the quality of the field in any single event. If they deleted every single event between the Tour Championship and Hawaii (except Ryder/Presidents cups of course), my golf watching from August to January would change zero. There's something to be said for having a real off-season.

tungsten's point of there only being 10 must-watch events may even be too many. I have the majors (4), Players, Ryder/President's cup, Tour Championship, Match Play. That's 8. I could drop the PGA Championship and be fine. Then I generally throw in some of the early events because I'm jonseing for golf. Kapalua, Sony Open, Waste Management, Riveria.

[dcmidnight]

I'm completely fine if all these guys are motivated by money - my point was that they arent going to get more on the Clown Show Tour. And I'll watch some pieces of golf every weekend there is golf on - so to me there is no such thing as too many events.

Honest question but what would the PGA Tour be worried about? Its all talk right now. Between the 4 majors, 4 WGCs and Players these guys have 9 high dollar events with most of those purses in the $13-15M range. On top of that, the FedEx Cup prize pool is $60M, winner gets $15M this year, increasing in future years. And I call those events high dollar assuming you discount all the other events as "low dollar". So I'm fine if they want the money.

Here's what the CST has right now:

No definitive source, amount or guarantee of funding. In order to talk players into leaving the PGA Tour, I think we can all agree you probably need to guarantee them a minimum of 3-5 years of events? No one is leaving for one year. Five years would be over a billion dollars in prize money - let alone what you give away in "team equity" like the alleged offer to Tiger for $250M in equity.No confirmed schedule and no confirmed courses. They want to play on the "best courses in the world" - but no confirmed dates, courses or events. **** I'd "like to" play Pine Valley too.No confirmed players or team structure.No confirmed team sponsors or league sponsors.No confirmed TV contract, streaming contract, anything of the kind.So its still 100% talk. Subject to change, for sure. I'd say if these guys even had ONE of these, the Tour concern level would be increased to 0.001% concerned. If whoever is putting up the money came out and said "We are putting $1B cash into a 5 year guarantee, 18 events a year, $X per event" - thats a whole other ballgame.

[dsc123]

my point was that they arent going to get more on the Clown Show Tour.

The top 48 players on the PGA Tour last year made $177m. The PGL says they can pay out $240m. That's more.

 

But yeah, if your point is that if they PGL doesn't have $240m...then they can't pay $240m. I mean, okay, but I think assuming they do have that cash is really a predicate for the conversation. Of course it only works if they have the money.

 

But I think you overestimate how hard it is to get that money. $240m isn't that much money. Its a Robinson Cano contract.

 

Successful or not, I think the bigger and more interesting issue is whether this can upend--directly or indirectly--the economic model of the sport. No other sport pays its top players so little, comparatively. From Harig's article from a few weeks ago:As the Premier Golf League release said: "As the moment, the best -- the true global stars -- subsidize the rest. The League will re-balance the economics. The best players need to compete, but not against 150 other guys every week -- 47 will suffice."How is it that the top players are considered to be underpaid?One player agent who wished not to be identified presented it this way: "The needle-movers, the guys who are responsible for revenue, go out and compete at the risk of not being paid," he said, citing the example of a big-name movie star. "He doesn't shoot a movie for free and see how it does."Tiger Woods has been presented as the best example of this dilemma."Tiger Woods can sell a million dollars' worth of tickets, be largely responsible for a large part of the television contract (the rights fees paid to the PGA Tour), and he has to shoot scores to get paid," the agent said. "There really is an issue there. The question is how to manage and respond to it."

 

 

 

[dcmidnight]

The top 48 players on the PGA Tour last year made $177m. The PGL says they can pay out $240m. That's more.

I dont over or underestimate how "hard" it is to come up with a billion dollars - but I think you are completely overestimating....everything else. Does the $177M the top 48 guys made include their off the course earnings? Because I'm guessing their off courses earnings alone are a multiple of $177M. The top guys are making $20M+ off the course alone, Mickelson, Tiger, Rory, I bet they are close to $40M. Do you think those same sponsors, the Rolexs, the Mercedes, all of those companies - are going to line up to sponsor guys on this other dumb tour?

Again - they have nothing right now other than ideas. A lot of talk and words on paper. I see a lot of press releases talking about things that don't actually exist.

You know what else I dont see, I dont see one actual player themselves say they aren't getting paid enough money. Or that they only want to play against 40 other players. Or that they like the team idea. Or...anything. The press releases are telling people what other golfers should think. And honestly - I'm guessing Rory speaks for a lot of them. Life is pretty great on the real tour and they call their own shots. And especially with the new tv deal coming up -who's going to give up all that to be told what your schedule is? I would bet that Rory gives a lot of them cover to say "I'm out".

[TheCityGame]

I haven't read thing 1 or thing 2 about this other tour. I'll pay attention when and if they have an event.

I only say that because I hate missing out on a good thread war. Can we talk about the long term forecast for Pinehurst instead?

Speaking of the long term forecast for Pinehurst, CityDame asked me last night if I was playing golf after work today and so I opened my phone to check the forecast and it was a rain/snow mix all day in the low 30's and I was like "wtf bro?" and then I realized I had put Pinehurst, NC into the app at one point and then I was really like, "WTF BRO?"

Looks like you guys are going to have some cold mornings, but you''ll still get golf in. No real precip. Could be worse. Could be better. We had some soggy stuff last year.

 

 

[ceejay81]

Can we talk about the long term forecast for Pinehurst instead? Looks like you guys are going to have some cold mornings, but you''ll still get golf in. No real precip.

 

This is a glorious forecast considering last year.

 

[tungstenplug]

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Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[aiyyer]

Yup - still cautiously optimistic and hope the forecast holds out. I’m pretty much out on work and kids soccer till the trip and have to start packing today. Cold with sun is awesome weather compared to last year

 

[TheCityGame]

I know who I'm rooting for at the WGC this weekend.

Lorenzo Vera. I finished almost last on the Challenge Tour in 2013 and I had almost €400,000 of debt in France because of bad decisions, partying, and being very generous to everybody around me. I’d had one good year in 2008 when I won around €350,000; but after taxes and expenses there’s not much left, and trust me I spent it really badly. I never looked at my bank balance. Never. And then one day the card stopped working and I called the bank shouting at them. ‘Why isn’t it working?’ and they say, ‘well, because you’ve got no money.”

I’m one shot inside the cut. I’ve hit the fairway and the heart of the green, and I have a putt with a big angled break. I told my brother that I was going to chip it over the break with my sand-wedge, and he tells me no, you’re going to putt that four metres right. So we get into this argument and he says “I’m going to snap your sand-wedge so just take the putter.” I hit the putt to one foot from the hole and made par to make the cut. After that moment my brother told me my mentality wasn’t right

His mentality wasn't right.

Oh, ya think? "I'm going to chip it over the break" just kills me.

[vtnerf]

Do you think those same sponsors, the Rolexs, the Mercedes, all of those companies - are going to line up to sponsor guys on this other dumb tour?

Let's take a look at this way...Kostis just came out and dropped bombs on CBS's coverage. Say the new "league" listens, and hires him and others with experience to help set up the broadcasts. The league doesn't have the "stuffy" rules for pants and such. There's only 48 guys out there. They can show way more shots from everyone. Moar air time for everyone. Moar shots. Moar logos on screen. Moar sponsors in the grass ala the Euro Tour. Moar golf and Moar logos....THAT'S attractive to sponsors. Maybe it's $20mil a year attractive. Maybe not. But Rory's face in a magazine is still Rory's face in a magazine. On the course he's got a simple Swoosh and that's it. Maybe playing in the new league there's an arm logo or something more. Who knows. Tiger is still going to Tiger. And sponsors will still pay him to Tiger. No matter where he plays. (Arnie was shilling for Ketel One in 2004 and Lexington Furniture in 2006...well past his "prime" but still marketable. Show ponies are show ponies no matter where they are.)

My fear is that it will turn out like Indy car racing, when the IRL split from Indy Car. Both failed miserably. With combined majors (minus the PGA) maybe this won't be the case...........if it goes.

 

 

[vtnerf]

The other question is...with the talks/rumors/whatever about a new golf league floating around out there. And some players interested in it. How, or does it, affect the negotiations the current PGA tour are having for the TV deal. If I'm NBC, I'm not tripling my TV contract for the next 10 years with the thought that 48 (top) guys might take their ball and leave. I know the level of golf n the tour won't falter much, but with Tiger and Phil interested curious about the new league, there's some star power missing. That makes me pause when bidding on a new TV deal, at least until I know the full details of what I'm up against.

At the end of the day, the current TV deal will be substantially more than what it is now...the question is just how much. PGA purses will increase. And fingers crossed, coverage will improve. (This past event on PGA was a clown show, and that's disappointing.)

[therealsneek]

It will be a little chilly, but we will definitely get some golf in if the forecast holds up. Hopefully not much of a delay due to frost.

 

I've been thinking about my layering strategy and hat choices. Will probably need a beanie in the mornings and then transition into a hat in the afternoons. We should warm up quickly by walking.

[dcmidnight]

Found out today that B team matches this year are going to start at 1230p instead of 830-9a like in previous years. How miserable. Blows the whole day instead of being able to be home by early afternoon. Yuck.

I cant tell if thats better or worse than finding out they are running the first round of club championship matches on a Friday. I feel like these are equally awful.