Stiff+ Driver Shafts

[bobcat88]

I currently have KBS Tour V S+ iron shafts and feel like I’ve found the right flex. Do any manufacturers make Stiff+ driver and wood shafts? Would basically the Fuji Tour Spec S shafts be probably the closest to it?

[cjblake09]

Get a stiff shaft and tip it about 1/2" and you will get a stiff +

[jgallant415]

“Stiff” and “Stiff+” don’t really mean anything in an absolute sense... it’s just relative to the rest of a product lineup. KBS Stiff =/= Fujikura Stiff =/= Project X Stiff... you get the idea. To the point above, if you find a shaft you like but want it a hair stiffer, get it tipped half an inch.

[mbarnocki]

I tend to look for something similar as well. I play X flex in my irons usually, I have played X in driver as well at times. But lately I tend to like Project X in a 6.0, or as you mentioned atmos ts spec stuff. I have HZRDS 6.0 smoke black in driver, Atmos blue TS in 3 wood, and I have been demoing new hybrids lately and will likely purchase a TS2 with the evenflow t1100 in 6.0. I could also see myself playing PX 6.0 in my irons again. I recently put an old 6.0 flighted in a P790 5 iron head and love the feel. To me the 6.0 generally feels like S+ compared to other brands.

[KevCannon]

Unfortunately there is no standard for flex, a stiff in on company may be extra stiff or even regular in another. I really do like that Kim Braley (KBS, Rifle Project X) makes in between flexes, i wish more companies did this. Sadly, only way to know is to try the shaft first.

 

[Colej]

Paderson ballistic

[naws-golfer]

The rogue 130MSI comes in a tour stuff flex and sits nicely between stiff and x, leaning towards x.

but I’d find something you like, tipping is the best way to adjust flex.

[Howard_Jones]

There is no common standards for flex labels, so tell me, how stiff is "S flex" and how stiff is "X flex" and compared to what?

 

[naws-golfer]

thanks HoJo. I’m very aware of the arbitrary flex labeling by OEMs.

 

my comment was based on my experience in multiple driver fittings over the years. It was a generalization. For players that are new to thinking about shaft flex and might be overwhelmed, I was trying to illustrate that flex and stiffness is a spectrum rather than defined measurements.

Thanks for chiming in

[Howard_Jones]

Good, but we should be careful with that kind of statements since its mostly misleading. In my arsenal or drivers i have R, S, X and 5.5 flex labels, and they are all very close on flex no matter method we use to judge it since some of them is from a "weak to flex" model series, other from a "strong to flex" series, and its no many day between posts where players think PX 5.5 is the same as R flex, so this area is about the most misunderstood of them all.

The label only tell where that shaft belongs in its own model and weight series, so as example TT XP95 S is weaker than TT XP 115 R, both shafts is from the same company, they even share model name, but since weight is different, "all bets are off" and the flex labels becomes useless for compare.

KBS uses the FCM system, and S+ is then "plus minus FCM 6.0", but shaft profiles makes that system useless, so even if we had a FCM value, lets say 6.0, we cant just move on the chart to driver play length to find what butt CPM that is, since the chart is made for shafts with the same EI profile all the way. RIFLE is considered to be "high/mid" launch in general, but if we choose a Low launch profile, the butt section is softer to move bend point higher up, so if we used the FCM chart and picked a shaft that fits the chart as 6.0, it will most likely feel to stiff, and as a different flex, and if the shaft is HIGH launch it will often look too strong since the FCM system only measure the butt, and has "implicit" that the shaft at hand is a RIFLE FCM. As another example Grafalloy PL BLUE AXIS looks 1 flex stronger than PL RED AXIS when they have the same flex label. Blue is "butt stiff" to alter tip to butt deflection (like RIFLE FCM), while the RED is butt soft (relative) to make it low launch.'

On top of this, all shafts has a "slope" for flex progression thats unique for the shaft model so as length change, 2 models that happens to fit "the chart" at a certain length will look different when we go longer or shorter because the model is designed different than the "chart", be it FCM, Kaufmans or what ever chart, so we need one chart for each model if we wanted to do this "right". *

So flex labels and judgement is the largest mess of them all, and thats why we must be very careful when we deal with them and compare different models. Only deep depth knowledge on the specific models can help us to judge flex, not the labels-

[Howard_Jones]

Im adding this chart who was made to show off the variables we can find on 2 shafts who say they are the same...they hardly ever is, but as input to the debate on Flex labels, look at the row for Label UP who is the same as Label down. Thats how most shafts is installed.

Here we can see what i was writing above about PL RED AXIS vs BLUE AXIS. The RED is in the 250 area, the BLUE is in the 260 area or RED looks 1 flex weaker but its the profile and butt side thats weaker on a LOW launch profile compare to a higher launching profile. PL RED and TOUR is "close" on profile, but Tour is stiffer over all, and become kind of a S+ compared to RED S where butt section is about half a flex stronger than RED, but so is the rest of the profile, but if we draw the slope for Zone flex, the lines will look almost as the same. ( its the TOUR on line 1 who is the norm, the TOUR S on line 2 is a "flyer" or a shaft that for some reason became stronger than the intentions, and almost as strong as the same model in X flex.

As a sum, flex labels and charts becomes useless, we must know the actual shaft at hand, and no matter what the CPM reader or "chart on the wall" tries to tell us, we dont know how it feels for the player who shall play it, so we have to try it off before we know if its a good fit or not.

Thats why i advocate to go to club fitters who knows true specs on their DEMO clubs, and who does a quality control and measure the shaft they deliver before install to make sure THAT shaft is "identical" or like it should be compared to the shaft used during fitting, so not even the same model, weight and flex label is good enough to say "they are the same"...they hardly ever is, they will always vary, and we never know how much before we have measured them.