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Strange relations PW vs Driver


Howard_Jones

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When i was at Mitchell Golf Equipment Institute, we often tried to measure the relations between the driver and the #6 iron since the #6 was common as "fitting club", and used the factor 80% for club speed, but the varieties to that is HUGE, but for some strange reason i cant explain, there seems to be a more constant relation on both Club speed, Ball speed and Carry from the PW to the Driver. i have gone over quite a few different Trackman reports, and notice that when we compare PW to Driver all this 3 factors seems to line up rather constantly with not much differences to this factors as all. PS! The PW used is 46* to 48* on loft, so if your PW is stronger, this numbers might be off. If we have a PW with loft like a players #9 iron, the factor for Carry drops to 1.85 from PW to Driver.

 

CLUB SPEED - PW x 1.35 = Driver Club speed

BALL SPEED - PW x 1.63 = Driver Ball speed

CARRY YRD - PW x 2.03 = Driver Carry as yards

 

How does this looks like for your bag?

Many dont know club speed or ball speed on their clubs, but average Carry should be known, and it seems like we can say PW carry x 2 = Driver Carry.

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> @otw said:

> If these conditions aren't met with driver what is the first thing to examine?

>

 

Where you make impact on the face if its the distance parameter (PW x 2)

 

Simplified example

PW distance 125 yards x 2 = 250 yards with the driver.

If your Smash factor /Power transfer ratio is only 1.4 vs optimum 1.5 we loose 10 mph ball speed (if club speed is 100 with the driver) and for each mph ball speed, there is average 2 yards carry all else equal and then we will only get 230 yards carry

 

230/125 = 1.84 as factor PW to Driver in that case

 

To improve it, look into this DIY driver tune up.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

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> @skraly said:

> Not sure about club and ball speeds as I don't ready access to a launch monitor but the carry distance is right on. My standard PW on flat ground, no wind, at 80 deg. F. carries 120 yds. My driver under the same conditions carries 240.

 

Nice to hear that, this numbers is mostly from "better players" from my studio, but they also happens to fit very good with both PGA and LPGA average and that made me wonder why the PW to driver had such "tight numbers", when the same numbers for #6 iron to driver seems to be "all over the place". LPGA #6 to driver is 1.43 and PGA has a factor of 1.50 from #6 to driver.

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I wish the carry distances were accurate for me on a regular basis. No question that Pw x 2 is about right at times but the driver is the killer of my golf game, I really struggle for consistency.

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> @Stetson said:

> I wish the carry distances were accurate for me on a regular basis. No question that Pw x 2 is about right at times but the driver is the killer of my golf game, I really struggle for consistency.

 

Quick fix

Change letter 4 in your name from S to N, and use a 3W with Grafalloy Blue :smiley:

 

..Joke a side, read my DIY driver tune up, it has helped lots of player to improve the driver they have, you dont need any special tools to find what works better, so anyone can do it.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

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I carry my wedge 140-143 ,,, loft 45

 

My driver is 265, 275 if perfect launch conditions

 

So no quite bang on

 

Good info though HJ

 

I bet the numbers for me would work at 47-48*

 

Carry for 50* GW is 125 fwiw

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> @cardoustie said:

> I carry my wedge 140-143 ,,, loft 45

>

> My driver is 265, 275 if perfect launch conditions

>

> So no quite bang on

>

> Good info though HJ

>

> I bet the numbers for me would work at 47-48*

>

> Carry for 50* GW is 125 fwiw

 

Reverse it like this, average driver 270/2 = 135

How much difference can we expect from 45 vs 47 of loft? about 5-6 yards = 140-141

If we used the longest 275/2 = 137.5 + 5 to 6 yards for loft difference = 142.5 -143.5

Close enough vs your numbers if you ask me....i just wish i could explain why it seems to be like that for so many, since i have no clue how your short iron game is vs your driver, but it does not seems to matter for some reason, they simply fall into this pattern. Thats why i wrote "Strange Relations", because i have absolutely no explanation for it.

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Howard, my swing speed is very much at the bottom end of any data curve but here is my Flightscope numbers not normalised.

(Swing Speed, Ballspeed, Carry)

PW 62.1 MPH, 71.0 MPH, 83.5 yards

 

Driver 75.9 MPH, 111.2 MPH, 164.9 yards

 

Calculated using your formula

 

CLUB SPEED - 62.1x 1.35 = Driver Club speed 83.84 MPH

BALL SPEED - 71 x 1.63 = Driver Ball speed 115.73 MPH

CARRY YRD - 83.5 x 2.03 = Driver Carry as yards 169.5 Yards.

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> @DaveMac said:

> Howard, my swing speed is very much at the bottom end of any data curve but here is my Flightscope numbers not normalised.

> (Swing Speed, Ballspeed, Carry)

> PW 62.1 MPH, 71.0 MPH, 83.5 yards

>

> Driver 75.9 MPH, 111.2 MPH, 164.9 yards

>

> Calculated using your formula

>

> CLUB SPEED - 62.1x 1.35 = Driver Club speed 83.84 MPH

> BALL SPEED - 71 x 1.63 = Driver Ball speed 115.73 MPH

> CARRY YRD - 83.5 x 2.03 = Driver Carry as yards 169.5 Yards.

 

They dont match, maybe its because your club speed is way lower than anyone in those numbers ive used. If i recall right, i dont think there was anyone with a driver below 85 as club speed.

 

Your numbers become

Club speed = 1.22 vs 1.35

Ball speed = 1.57 vs 1.63

Carry = 1.97 vs 2.03

 

Carry is close, but still "off" with more than ive seen until now.

 

Maybe you need a club fitting my friend :-)

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> @GMR2iron said:

> Howard, right on the nuts! PW is 130, driver is 260.

 

Nice to hear that, but i have to admit that i feel kind of stupid making a observation like this, and i have no clue about why it is like that, because everything should be possible to explain, but i cant explain this one. Im digging trough my large case of notes, so this was something i found by coincident back in 2012 when i was running all sorts of numbers, but i actually forgot about it all until i saw this papers again

I had no explanation then and i still dont, and i never saw it mentioned by others either, so i though it would be interesting for others to know, since it seems to be kind of a "constant" or at least a very good rule of thumb.

 

 

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Yup, lines up with me pretty much perfectly as well. I carry my 48* PW right around 140-145 and my average Driver carry is normally around 285-295.

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I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

 

Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

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> @agolf1 said:

> I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

>

> Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

 

I think the loft and length of most PWs tends to put a bit of a "cap" on how much it can vary. I think people that deloft a PW enough to squeeze a meaningful amount of extra distance are going to trend towards being stronger players anyway and likely won't be wanting with the driver. I imagine it would be pretty rare to have a guy doing that with a wedge while also having the weaker, flippy type of driver ball flight necessary to create too much of a disparity in the 2:1 rule.

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> @agolf1 said:

> I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

>

> Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

 

I never saw this info anywhere, so if you have a source for it, it would be nice.

And YES, my numbers was based on a PW from 46* to 48* loft with the average on 47*, but since drivers is anything from 7.5* to above 13* (largest volume 10* to 11*), and play length vary more on drivers than they do for the PW, i still have not found a reasonable explanation for it, and the answers in this tread also cover a wide range of both club speed and distance, but still, the factor "PW x 2 " seems valid.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @agolf1 said:

> > I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

> >

> > Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

>

> I never saw this info anywhere, so if you have a source for it, it would be nice.

> And YES, my numbers was based on a PW from 46* to 48* loft with the average on 47*, but since drivers is anything from 7.5* to above 13* (largest volume 10* to 11*), and play length vary more on drivers than they do for the PW, i still have not found a reasonable explanation for it, and the answers in this tread also cover a wide range of both club speed and distance, but still, the factor "PW x 2 " seems valid.

It only came up in some threads here, so unfortunately I don't have the deep details or the type of explanation / reasoning you are looking for. It may also be when we ask people "is it around 2x?" that people anchor their mind to those figures that "work" more than they should. I.e. if we asked for driver carry and adjusted wedge carry (closest loft adjusted by 2-3 yards per degree to 47 degrees) we would see more variation, but on average the 2x figure would still work as a crude sanity check. Still, I don't know why it seems to work better than a 6-iron for better players (your studio and tour figures) and supposedly many people here.

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> @agolf1 said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > @agolf1 said:

> > > I've also heard that driver carry should be around 2x your PW (traditional lofts) carry as a rough test to tell if your driver is reasonably well fit. Using my 49 degree GW as the reference point, my driver carry is a tad over 2x. However, if you add 5-6 yards of carry to get to a 47 degree club it lines up about perfect.

> > >

> > > Personally, I've always found it a bit "odd" how well this seems to line up for various people. I thought there would be more variation in how hard people are swinging with these two clubs along with changes in AOA/dynamic loft people deliver with a PW. But it seems to work...

> >

> > I never saw this info anywhere, so if you have a source for it, it would be nice.

> > And YES, my numbers was based on a PW from 46* to 48* loft with the average on 47*, but since drivers is anything from 7.5* to above 13* (largest volume 10* to 11*), and play length vary more on drivers than they do for the PW, i still have not found a reasonable explanation for it, and the answers in this tread also cover a wide range of both club speed and distance, but still, the factor "PW x 2 " seems valid.

> It only came up in some threads here, so unfortunately I don't have the deep details or the type of explanation / reasoning you are looking for. It may also be when we ask people "is it around 2x?" that people anchor their mind to those figures that "work" more than they should. I.e. if we asked for driver carry and adjusted wedge carry (closest loft adjusted by 2-3 yards per degree to 47 degrees) we would see more variation, but on average the 2x figure would still work as a crude sanity check. Still, I don't know why it seems to work better than a 6-iron for better players (your studio and tour figures) and supposedly many people here.

 

ive done some search for it, but dont find anything. What i find is driver total but not as a direct compare to PW, just long lists with total for all clubs.

i have downloadet most public info Trackman have released, nothing there either, so for me this seems to be overlooked and i find that strange since this is a "better" and a more correct rule of thumb than most other rule of thumbs who is related to Golf.

 

Examples

2 grams is 1 SWP, but for the clubs we play it vary from 1.6 to about 2.35 grams, so that rule mislead more than it helps

Club speed x 2.5 = potential carry as yards, or total as meters, but we might see up to 2.6 in extreme cases.

 

So, im still surprised this rule of thumb is kept a "secret", you are the first who seems to be aware of this relation ship.

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The relationship I do remember being talked about was much looser. It was "If you can hit your 9-iron 150y then you should be hitting your driver 300". No mention of loft, but if we are assuming more traditional lofts then that 9-iron becomes today's PW.

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> @Valtiel said:

> The relationship I do remember being talked about was much looser. It was "If you can hit your 9-iron 150y then you should be hitting your driver 300". No mention of loft, but if we are assuming more traditional lofts then that 9-iron becomes today's PW.

 

You are in bad standing for a few seconds for not telling LOL...i never heard about this before, but one of the others in this tread gave me a link to a tread in here where it seems like you knew about this, but again, it was NOT known for Mitchell G.E.I, and its not mentioned in any of my books, and i cant find it at Trackman or any other place, and that made me wonder....how could such a "constant" relationship exist, but not be noticed?..strange, but may be the "loft syndrome" is the reason its forgotten, lofts on clubs of today is no longer what they used to be, but not even in my books from the 60s (Grieg - how golf clubs really works) mention this, and that books has tons of charts and math examples for almost any club spec that exist. Todays clubs is actually designed by his ideas, but back then they did not have tools to make Titanium heads, and carbon fiber shafts was "science fiction", so its in our days his theories is put to life. Shakespeare made the first carbonfiber shaft in 1972, and Griegs book is written about 1967 or like 5 years before.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > The relationship I do remember being talked about was much looser. It was "If you can hit your 9-iron 150y then you should be hitting your driver 300". No mention of loft, but if we are assuming more traditional lofts then that 9-iron becomes today's PW.

>

> You are in bad standing for a few seconds for not telling LOL...i never heard about this before, but one of the others in this tread gave me a link to a tread in here where it seems like you knew about this, but again, it was NOT known for Mitchell G.E.I, and its not mentioned in any of my books, and i cant find it at Trackman or any other place, and that made me wonder....how could such a "constant" relationship exist, but not be noticed?..strange, but may be the "loft syndrome" is the reason its forgotten, lofts on clubs of today is no longer what they used to be, but not even in my books from the 60s (Grieg - how golf clubs really works) mention this, and that books has tons of charts and math examples for almost any club spec that exist. Todays clubs is actually designed by his ideas, but back then they did not have tools to make Titanium heads, and carbon fiber shafts was "science fiction", so its in our days his theories is put to life. Shakespeare made the first carbonfiber shaft in 1972, and Griegs book is written about 1967 or like 5 years before.

 

Haha! I'm sure you can forgive me for feeling like I didn't know something that you did not, lol. I remember it as an offhanded anecdote that seemed to make sense for me, but assumed that there must not be THAT strong of a correlation. Its interesting to see that there is much more of one and that it has been relatively unexplored!

 

 

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I am definitely a little off when it comes to this. Trackman puts my average PW at 135 carry and average Driver at about 295 carry (118 SS). Would be about right for 3W=2x PW carry for me.

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> @"b.mattay" said:

> I am definitely a little off when it comes to this. Trackman puts my average PW at 135 carry and average Driver at about 295 carry (118 SS). Would be about right for 3W=2x PW carry for me.

 

No rules without exception, and you seems to hit your driver way to long, and should change it :-))))

...or more correct, you might be hitting your PW a bit short...but again, no rules without exception, but your numbers is quite a bit off vs the expected here.

 

If we use "potential carry" and club speed x 2.5 = carry as yards, yours is spot on, and about as good as can be, while most players has a bit more to get from the driver they play, while you seems to be maxed out on that club, and maybe a little short on your PW, so i think thats why this formula is wrong in your case.

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  • 4 months later...

Wow this is spot on. I carry my pitching wedge 46 degrees between 140/145 and in my last fitting on optimal strikes I carried my driver 280-290. That is crazy. Same with my dad with normal swing speed 120 pitching wedge and 240 carry for his driver.

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I don't know how I missed this back in October, but this is pretty cool. My PW (45*) carry is a comfortable 120-125 yards in the summer, and my carry with my driver is 240-250 yards on good strikes.

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      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 7 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

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