Strange relations PW vs Driver

[Howard_Jones]

Yes its pretty cool, and about the only "rule of thumb" thats worth something in Golf tech. All the others i know about has way larger variables from "high to low", while this one seems to be very constant and seems valid for both low and high club speed, so its a good one to know about. If the numbers dont match, i think we should look into them and figure out why, and when they match we cant expect any revolutions to distance from a new driver as another example for practical use.

[CDLgolf]

Works for my numbers, PW is 120 to 125 Driver is 240 to 250.

[rt_charger]

Howard, I was thinking - perhaps it's a much more simple relationship:

1 degree of loft = 3/4 yards.

Driver commonly is at 10.5, PW is at say 47.

10.5x4=42, and driver is usually at 45, PW is usually at 35.5.

Perhaps theres some factor in the length and loft relationship which magically works out that driver goes twice as far as a 47 degree wedge

[rt_charger]

Also, to get to 47 from 10.5 you have to multiply by about 4.5. Perhaps theres something in the physics of hitting the ball, that brings that 4.5 down to half output at 2.25, and then something in the 10" difference pf shaft length brings it down again to 2, netting your x2 distance. I don't know, I'm late night ranting and it sounds gibberish but take what you will lol.

[Howard_Jones]

For short NO, the factor you get will be "all over the place", since drivers loft has a norm range from 7.5* to 13*, and PW 46 to 48 here...still carry is PW x 2, and any other way you try to do the numbers will get a factor thats variable.

7.5* to 46* = 6.13

7.5* to 48* = 6.4

13* to 46* = 3.53

13* to 48* = 3.69

10.5* to 47* = 4.47

We have a gear ratio for driver to PW loft thats all over the place .

We can expect high club speed players to have a lower lofted driver than the slow club speed player, but both high and low club speed players have the same 2.0 factor (plus minus "next to nothing")., so loft from driver to PW is NOT the answer for why we end here.

The numbers above gives 3.5 to 6.4 or 2.9 as difference or plus 82% but club speed is not 82 % higher from 80 mph to 120 mph who is +50%, and PTR value vary for both the driver and the PW, but still we see PW carry x 2 = driver carry in the same bag.

..its just how it is...for some reason, and its not loft

[Commack350Z]

Does this mean I should focus on increasing my PW distance and it will take care of the driver?

[Howard_Jones]

No, its just a observation of a factor that seems valid for players where their equipment works like expected, so the practical use of it is not large, but it gives us a hint about a misfit if the numbers are off with more than a handful yards.

[jah7838]

So I asked 3 golfing buddies their PW/Driver Carry numbers, and they were the following:
142 yards PW, 280 Driver
150 yards PW, 300 Driver
135 yards PW, 270 Driver
Thanks for this @Howard_Jones! The information you make available on here is great!

[sm_watts]

I would like to take this a slightly different direction if you'll indulge me... what would you expect the impact of altitude and air humidity to have on this relationship? I live at 5,000 feet elevation with very little humidity, but I sometimes play in Laramie, WY, which is over 7,000 feet elevation. When I head back to visit my parents in Washington, I play at sea level. Would you expect the relationship to remain constant in different conditions like this? Or does altitude & humidity affect woods more than irons or vice versa? I wouldn't mind hearing your opinion, then I'll come back with what I have noticed.

[Howard_Jones]

Good input, but like i cant explain this observation, i dont know how this might look at 5 to 7000 feets, i never played Golf more than 176 meter above sea level myself (my home course now - Alhama De Murcia), and non of them who has replied here, have told what level they play on, (or the loft on their driver for that matter) so i cant answer that question, you are actually the closest to fill us in on that.

PS! All numbers i do for LM analyzes is at sea level, and my fitting studio in Denmark was only 7 meters above sea level, and Denmark where i lived the latest 20 years is about "as flat as can be" so height above sea level is not something we relate to at all, while humidity is since Denmark is a pile of sand in the middle of the north sea between UK, Norway and Sweden.

Please fill us in with your own observations here, it should be interesting for all readers if you have noticed that this factor change with height above sea level.

[Howard_Jones]

 

i found this chart on Golf.com, and if thats correct, this 2.0 factor shall still be good (same temp)

If we say 125 PW and 250 on the driver at sea level, and moves to 7000 feets, and use this chart, our new numbers should be.

125 + (7 x 2.2) = 140 for the PW

250 + (7 x 4.5) = 281 for the driver

the factors here 4.5/2.2 = 2.04 or the same as LPGA Average for PW to Driver (PGA has 2.02 as average factor from PW to driver)

source : https://www.golf.com/instruction/2018/12/14/how-hot-weather-elevation-change-affect-golf-shots-study

[sm_watts]

Interesting article, although it would have been nice to do his experiments with three different swing speeds- maybe 90 mph, 100 mph, and 115ish, to see if the added spin that is put on a ball with a higher swing speed has more of an affect.

My observations are with my modest 90 mph driver SS. When I play at 7,000 feet, my irons fly forever. At home (5,000 feet elevation), my PW is 125-130. In Laramie (7,200 feet) my PW is closer to the 140-145 yard range. However, going down to sea level only takes a club at most away from me.

Woods seem to be impacted greater from elevation. I would guess because of having considerably less spin than short irons. I don’t see much difference with my driver from 5K to 7K feet, but there is a serious drop-off going down to sea level. Of course, it’s hard to judge most of the time when the wind is rarely less than 20 mph out here in Wyoming.

[Howard_Jones]

Here is another strange one, or maybe its not so strange, lets here from all of you again...

If you found your driver carry to be equal to your PW carry X 2, then i wants to know TOTAL WEIGHT and the difference between those 2 clubs....

You will "most likely" have a driver thats PW total weight x 0.7...plus minus 1% or from plus minus 0.69 to 0.71....

Example PW 459 grams, x 0.70 = Driver total wgt 321.5 grams

Does the numbers align again?

[Nard_S]

I'm at .72 currently. 468g on PW and 336g on driver but I'm dropping that 328g with a shaft change in the works. That weight saw my biggest pokes over last 3 years and drops that ratio to .7. So sounds pretty valid.

[KevCannon]

This checks out for me. PW- 135 yards and driver- 270 yards. Amazing how accurate that relationship is.

[Howard_Jones]

YES, we already found out, its a silly good rule of thumb who match the numbers of a wide range of players where both PW and Driver works good, but we have never found out WHY it is like this, and since the numbers seems to be withing 1.95 to 2.05 with 2.0 as the average, im doing all sorts of "compares" of "apples and bananas", to find other factors that seems to be rather "constant", who might partly explain this, and thats why i expanded the question to TOTAL weight and the ratio between Driver and PW....there seems to be a 0.70 Ratio there (0.69 to 0.71), so i wanted to hear how that match up?

 

The only rather constant factor i have found between the PW and the driver, who has a gear ratio like Carry of plus minus 2.0, is Shaft weight....PW Shaft weight is Driver shaft weight x 2.0 as average..(1.9 to 2.1 as ratio for shaft weight from Driver to PW, while carry is more constant with 1.95 to 2.05 from PW to Driver),

But, we all know that to double the distance, it takes more than 50% shaft weight reduction alone to get there, but the observation is striking since we by the book has the thinking that shaft weight is what gives us a potential for higher or lower club speed since resistance goes up or down with shaft weight.

 

[hurley999s]

Dead on for me — 480g PW, 336g driver. 0.7x on the nose.

[HackerD]

Carry: PW 105 yds Driver 210 yds

Weight: PW 419 g Driver: 300 g (0.716)

 

 

 

 

[Puttersaurus Rex]

Primary PW = 443 (.6975)

Back-up PW = 441 (.7006)

Same iron shaft brand/flex in both PW.

Driver = 309

I just stumbled on this new driver shaft/set-up, and the weight falls in line. This is very insightful!

[Howard_Jones]

You forgot carry on the PW and the driver, is yours also PW carry x 2 = driver carry?

[Howard_Jones]

@ALL READERS

This tread is about 2 relations that for some reason seems to be at least a "rule of thumb", and thats is:

PW carry x 2 = Driver Carry

PW Total weight x 0.70 = Driver Total wgt.

Dont be afraid to chime in no matter how your numbers looks like, i want to see the exceptions too, not only when this numbers match, that dont make this a "rule of thumb" if many have numbers thats off from this, so please participate no matter how your numbers looks like, i want to see them no matter what they are to judge if this 2 "rules of thumbs" is valid to use.

[Puttersaurus Rex]

Mostly yes. Sometimes more with driver on a really good swing (swing harder with driver than PW for example).

[wareagle12]

This is really interesting to me..I deloft irons substantially (very low launch) and hit up on the driver substantially (fairly high launch) and this is incredibly close for me. Even with standard vs hard swing it holds true. Very interesting.

[Howard_Jones]

If you read from page one, all the way, this seems unreal, because we have no clue about how long driver they play, or what loft, or their club speed, or angle of attack, ONLY that their PW is 46* to 48* on loft, so what is the explanation?...it might be as simple as Total weight (relation driver to PW), and if that turns out to be the factor that stands out, Total weight is even more important than most of us has been aware of.

The practical use, might be to identify "whats wrong" if the PW to Driver as carry aint 2 X, and the Total weight relation aint 0.7 and that goes both ways, so in the end, this observation might be more helpful than just a "strange observation", we can at least use the PW x 2 = Driver to judge if PW or Driver is shorter than the normal potential without knowing club specs at all, but since i found a strange value for Total weight too, that MIGHT be the dominating factor, but we still dont know, its too few that has replied with the weight relation to confirm that its actually a parameter we can look at.

I found that factor years ago, (PW x 2) but forgot about it like so much else (getting old), and im just as amazed as all others about it, but i could never explain why, and thats what im trying to figure out when asking the second question, the total wgt factor PW to driver. Could it really be that simple? maybe...maybe not. lets see how it looks when more players have responded.

[wareagle12]

I am following to see what you come up with. I just tried it on my LM to see how close. 5 consecutive well struck pw. I was swinging the driver poorly so i had to hit a lot to have 5 decently struck shots.

Pw- 153.3 avg long 155.3 short 151.7

Driver- 303.1 avg carry long 311.7 short 298.0

 

I just realized i did total distance not carry on wedge. They all flew slightly longer. Like i said, driver was a struggle so on a normal day I think it would be remarkably close. Normal pw 150-155 and driver carry between 300-310. I don't have a scale to measure the weight but if i find one I will let you know.

Edit: wedge 46*, driver 10.5 turned to 9.9

 

[ChaosTheory]

409g PW with 58g grip

297g Dr with 42g Winn grip

So, 0.726. If the driver had the 58g grip, it would be a ratio of 0.765. My irons have 64 gram uncut shafts, and D2 swingweight.

My carry distances are right at 2:1.

I like this topic.

[BombinJim]

Howard - I’m leaving a ton on the table lately. Going through a swing change but that’s no excuse for wimping out on my driver. Going to give the DIY driver tuneup a shot this weekend. I’ve got some aftermarket head weights and a shorter driver shaft to mess around with.

 

Trackman averages on PW:

84.4 mph swing speed

103.3 mph ball speed

135.0 yd carry

 

Driver should be ~114 swing speed, 169 ball speed, 270 yd carry by your formulas.

[Howard_Jones]

7 hours ago, BombinJim said:

Howard - I’m leaving a ton on the table lately. Going through a swing change but that’s no excuse for wimping out on my driver. Going to give the DIY driver tuneup a shot this weekend. I’ve got some aftermarket head weights and a shorter driver shaft to mess around with.

 

Trackman averages on PW:

84.4 mph swing speed

103.3 mph ball speed

135.0 yd carry

 

Driver should be ~114 swing speed, 169 ball speed, 270 yd carry by your formulas.

With those PW numbers, your driver should be 270 to 275 on carry (factor 2.0 to 2.03)

 

[HISPL]

Howard, that looks to be very close to what I have seen too, my best friend is almost exactly on the money for those numbers.

 

For me I struggle to get that sort of yardage with the PW (47 degree wedge style, not matching the irons which are traditional MBs) in comparison to my driver which I can carry closer to 2.1 X the PW carry. 
 

PW carry is 115 for a “normal” swing and 120m for a “hard” swing, driver is 240m carry for a “normal” swing and 250m for a “hard” swing.

[mgoblue83]

12 hours ago, BombinJim said:

Howard - I’m leaving a ton on the table lately. Going through a swing change but that’s no excuse for wimping out on my driver. Going to give the DIY driver tuneup a shot this weekend. I’ve got some aftermarket head weights and a shorter driver shaft to mess around with.

 

Trackman averages on PW:

84.4 mph swing speed

103.3 mph ball speed

135.0 yd carry

 

Driver should be ~114 swing speed, 169 ball speed, 270 yd carry by your formulas.

 

What loft is your PW?