Handicap Administration -

[Newby]

Australia already have card scanners. No keying errors. I guess the card image is stored in the Cloud.

[gwt]

[Swango80]

Yes. I'm not worried about the competition side of things. Once everyone has finished their round, we do the following:

Check the number of entered scores (in the PSI) matches the number of competitors that were in the field. If not, look for their card and enter. If no card, and assuming they did actually play, No ReturnCheck that the number of submitted cards match the number of scores / entrants. If not, No ReturnCheck all cards have been signed, otherwise DQ. (The handicap is also printed on them by handicap sec, but if this is not done in future due to the way WHS will work, we'll check players have put the correct handicap on the card as well)Check entered scores in system with those on cards for the top scores, but not every score (unless there is a reason to of course)So, for competitions that is essentially done all at one time, and all competitors know they need to submit scorecards and they know the consequences if they do not.

With supplementary cards, currently there really isn't an issue as there are so few, and I end up typing in the scores anyway. But regardless, a players handicap will not change until I verify the score,

In future though, if more and more players enter scores, and they start getting to do this on Apps, then I can see players bring their card home, typing score in later in the day at their own leisure, and then either delaying the return of the card or throwing it out. At which point, when I come across their score, even if I don't have to check the details of that card, I still need it. So, I'd be left with chasing after the player and trying to get it. If they do not have it, then as far as I am aware, the score will still need to stand on their handicap record under WHS. Which makes you wonder why the card is necessary anyway?

As far as I gather, in the USA scorecards are not necessary at all. In fact, maybe nobody submits cards for general rounds, and just type in their scores as they go along? If that is the case, a handicap secretary would never have an issue with chasing and checking scorecards. In the UK, perhaps we will end up going this way. However, having also been in direct correspondence with England Golf, they say they will still be insisting that players submit scorecards for general rounds that are counting towards handicap. Their direct quote to me was:

"All cards must be returned. That is a Rule of Golf (Rule 3.3b(2)). And if they are not, a penalty score is added for handicapping purposes. (unless the correct score can be found within a reasonable time)."

In all honesty, even this response is misleading. On one hand, they are saying the scorecard MUST be returned. Yet, on the other they are saying that if it is not, the correct score can still be entered if found (i.e. presumably if the player typed it into PSI or an App, then you could assume that was the correct score, despite not having the card). Also, as far as the Rules of Golf are concerned, if no scorecard is submitted, the player is disqualified, However, as we are talking about social rounds, there is nothing to be disqualified from and so the round still counts towards their handicap despite no card. So, makes me wonder if that is why, in USA, they can get away with not handing in cards, because they simply can't be disqualified and handicap round still counts? Also makes me wonder that, if this is the case, are England Golf just being overly fussy and demanding cards are submitted because of Rule 3.3b(2), even though ultimately it makes no difference whatsoever, apart from giving a handicap secretary more filing work to do? Perhaps the Rule of Golf needs to be slightly reworded to say that the rule applies to competitions only, or the WHS guidance just needs to come out and say No Scorecard necessary for general rounds? If not, it just seems to be way too woolly, where the advice seems to be "You MUST submit a scorecard, but if you don't your round will still count anyway". Either you do or you don't. If they say you do, then there should be a clear procedure set out as to how to tackle it for a social round of golf.

[Newby]

"All cards must be returned. That is a Rule of Golf (Rule 3.3b(2)). And if they are not, a penalty score is added for handicapping purposes. (unless the correct score can be found within a reasonable time)."

This statement refers to now not post WHS. The WHS regulations for England Golf will almost certainly be different.

[Swango80]

No, that is for WHS, which I was specifically asking England Golf.

There is no such thing as a penalty score in our current system. It is not needed, because a no return is simply 0.1 back on handicap.

However, once we go to WHS, you can't just leave a score as a no return, as it is looking for your best 8 scores. So, penalty scores need to be applied when no scores are returned.

[Colin L]

I think you are making much more of this than need be because you are thinking of a "scorecard" as being a bit of actual card that we write our scores on and that if a score is tapped into an app on your phone you will additionally have to hand in a paper card. As far as the Rules of Golf are concerned, an electronic return of your scores can be your scorecard. I know that Scottish Golf is developing a "venue management system" which will include a tournament grade programme for the management of competitions and general play returns. This will include the facility to pre-register general play rounds, to enter scores hole by hole for competitions and have each one submitted in turn, to have a live leaderboard in the clubhouse.

Each national association will be calculating and maintaining the handicap records for its area, including the CDH and I doubt if the other CONGU countries will be any different from Scotland in envisaging and working towards a fully electronic system which will not require any pencil or paper.

I'd relax, if I were you, and stay .

[Newby]

As Colin says, Scotland id developing its own 'all singing and dancing' front end.

The other CONGU unions are commissioning the existing ISVs (ClubV1 et al) to do the same or similar things. Their plans include apps and card readers.

[Shilgy]

I would add to Swango and Newby that the rule cited. 3.3b(2) is for competitions. And in the US , at least at clubs and competitions I have been involved in, we do have to turn in signed scorecards.

 

What we do not need to do is turn in cards for daily casual play. Those scores are posted for handicap purposes but any checking on accuracy is generally** peer review only.

 

** I said generally because at the club I am at now many groups are using Golf Genius. We do keep paper cards and match them to the scores that were input by the groups scorer. The days scores are then posted to GHIN directly from the golf genius app. Which ensures accuracy and complete compliance.https://www.golfgenius.com/

 

[Swango80]

Unfortunately not. I did contact England Golf directly, and been chatting to one of those that gave the presentation at their HQ. Asking specifically about submitting a physical scorecard for social rounds of golf for handicapping (supplementary). Their response:

"All cards must be returned. That is a Rule of Golf (Rule 3.3b(2))"

When I mentioned that, given that I am really the only handicap person at the club (the Seniors have a representative, and for Annual Review, I get other Committee members to help), then if many members start handing in cards for general rounds and I have many scorecards to, at least, file away that could become quite a chore (especially if I have been away for a week or two, their response was:

"I would suggest you have a "proper" handicap committee to assist you.

So, as far as England Golf are concerned, in England it is the ACTUAL card that needs to be submitted, that rule as far as they are concerned does not only apply to competitions.

However, I have pointed out the ridiculousness of it. Because, the penalty for not handing in the scorecard is DQ. Well, there is no competition to be DQed from in a supplementary score, and the score MUST still count for handicapping. So, on one hand Engalnd Golf are adamant that the score must be submitted, yet on the other hand they are saying if it is not, the score MUST still count for handicapping. Is it this loophole that allows the US players not having to submit a scorecard. If so, is it correct I should be insisting golfers submit their scorecard, as per England Golf request, yet if they do not then just accept the score they plugged in anyway?

I fancy that once we go to WHS, we'll adapt in the UK as it goes along. In all honesty, I'll do my best to file the cards away. But, if it does get a bit out of hand, I may just start blindly accepting scores entered on the system and not bother doing anything with any cards submitted if they are not required on a technicality

 

[Newby]

CONGU require, as a condition of using their system, that the Affiliated Club appoint a Handicap Committee comprised of a minimum of three persons, the majority of whom must be Members.

It is not England Golf's problem but your club's. How you deal with it is up to your club not any external body. How about threatening to resign from your post and telling your members that their licence will be be withdrawn so they will no longer have handicaps.

However, although EG say a card has to be submitted, you don't have to check them all or even any. There will be system reports that will enable you to spot any abnormal handicap movement. I don't want to appear rude or unsympathetic but surely you need no more. Do really think that you have a lot of cheaters or incompetents in your club,?

[Colin L]

@Swango80
I expect when the time comes that electronic scoring is available, England Golf will change its requirements. Just think about it: if you are entering your general play score on a phone or tablet it will be uploaded directly to the central system for calculation of that day's handicap indices. There will be a gain in accuracy compared with having scores manually transcribed from card to computer and there will be nothing for you to check. It would be absurd to expect the player also to return a written card.

[Swango80]

I'm aware that a Handicap Committee requires 3 persons. Effectively, the handicap committee becomes myself, a representative from the seniors and the competition secretary. However, I'm the one that effectively does all the work, and I bring them on board when reviewing other players handicaps. It works well, and it fulfils the condition. No problem

However, we are not a members club, and there are very few that will actively wish to take on any voluntary duties (we have a fantastic bunch who do the various roles btw), so it would be difficult to get people to commit a lot of time IF much more effort was required in handicapping. If I was to walk away, all I'd be doing is putting other Committee members under undue stress, and very unlikely that another person will magically appear to fulfil the role.

However, this wasn't really my main point. It was only to get a grasp as to how the duties may change, or get greater, once WHS comes into play.

Do I think there are a lot of cheaters or incompetent at my club? Cheater, absolutely not. But, it only takes one to start getting up to dodgy antics before it could potentially irate other members. Also, a player may not feel they are cheating at all, but just playing the system to their advantage and thinking everything is legit. Incompetents? Well, I'm not sure what your experiences are, but we often have to update players scores in the system because they didn't type it in correctly. And these are people that are used to playing in competitions and get advice and experience from other golfers. So, I can't expect that to improve once golfers (or if this happens) who never really play many comps start entering a lot of social golf. But, I guess we should just let it be, and whatever happens, happens.

In all honesty, do I expect a huge amount of scorecards to be submitted week in week out from social golf? No, probably not, maybe just a few more than now. Do I expect that there will be members who start getting dubious handicap changes after submitting several social round scores. No, I hope not. However, it is far better for me to prepare for the "worst case" scenarios, otherwise I'll be on the back foot come November if any difficulties do arise. And, if members start complaining about a specific players handicap going up quickly, they will more than likely blame me just as much as him/her, especially if it is subjective as to whether there is any foul play or everything is above board.

 

[Swango80]

I agree with this, which is why I questioned England Golf for the need for a physical scorecard at all, with the Rules of Golf being the only reason given.

So, I also expect this requirement will go, but until then I guess the actual scorecard is still a must (despite the irony that the score will still count if not submitted)