The 60 degree wedge--when does it belong in a junior's bag?

[dpb5031]

I agree in terms of the evolution of equipment, especially the ball. It's far more difficult (and/or necessary) to shape & flight shots with today's ball and equipment, still it hasn't curtailed a player like Bubba Watson's shot shaping.

For every Seve who grew up learning to make due with his 2 or 3 iron or whatever, there are multiple pros like Phil who grew up using a 60. Do you think that inhibited Phil's development in terms of creativity and shotmaking?

Another consideration is that agronomy, particularly green speeds are vastly different now than when Seve was coming up.

[jj9000]

"Big-headed drivers, square grooves and 60-degree wedges all gave the less gifted an undeserved opportunity to play shots like Seve."

 

My favorite part of that biased clip is above suggesting other players had underdeserved opportunities.

Seve didn't "deserve" jack ****. Seve learned to play the game a different way. Is it the "right" way to play? Absolutely not, as there is no "right" way to play the game.

[MB19]

We see the instructor three more times (paid for it), and really, he's been good getting my kids to focus on golf course etiquette and some swing fundamentals. I won't hold his 60* wedge bias against him, but the kids are back to swinging it again when he's not with them.

[Hawkeye77]

Wow, that's just odd. My daughter, since she got her first really nice full set in 9th grade, has used 50-54-58. One of the things she had an issue with in HS was not getting enough trajectory out of her irons with a swing that generated plenty of speed and more loft was a good thing in a lot of situations. Not like she was addicted to it. Plus, depending on the sand, of course, can't imagine foregoing a 58/60 degree wedge. Hard to justify taking valuable tools out of the tool box and so much to be learned as you say with experimenting with wedge shots around the green and beyond.

[maxamillian31]

For really young kids they might not need a 60 degree and might do better mostly chipping with a 55 degree. Our older junior did not like his 60 degree until about age 10 then started using (including very creatively) and now can play high flops, bump and runs, deep rough, thin lies etc. all with the 60 degree - and really well. He plays to a scratch from men's tees and definitely has benefited from having it in his bag from a young age. I say add it but don't pressure a junior to use it.

[LeoLeo99]

Good analogy to the tool box. The 60 is a harder to use tool. Sometimes it's the right tool for the job but if you are not proficient with it, it causes more problems than it solves.

[ChipNRun]

Point about bump-and-run is good. As a course marshal, I saw this at 2014 Curtis Cup matches - American vs. British/Irish women amateurs. The Americans were addicted to the lob wedge (I even wrote it down in my on-site notes). Several times in the first match I followed, the American chose a LW shot into a tight pin placement with a false front. Each time the shot checked up and spun back to the flat part of the green. The British/Irish players made much more effective use of running chip shots.
As for junior golfers, how long have they been playing? Around here, golf instructors normally discourage beginners of any age from using the LW. It requires a special swing (lots of left-side lead even when in close) and can eat up too much newby practice time to master. Wait until season three when more basic parts of game have been mastered.@dpb5031 said: "Nearly every Tour pro carries and uses a 60 degree (or more loft)."
I have differing info. Golf Digest article about three years ago reported that 58° it the highest lofted wedge for about half of PGA tour pros.

[straightshot7]

I think one theory (saw Padraig Harrington elude to this recently on his Instagram) is that the 60 degree is the easiest club to use for getting the ball in the air and stopping it quickly.

So the idea is to make them learn to use an 8 iron, pitching wedge or a sand wedge around the greens, and then going to the 60 will seem really easy and they will be immediately more proficient with it.

However, I don't know if I believe in this theory.

You could also theorize that by giving them the 60 at a young age, they could learn to master it.

I don't think it necessarily matters a few degrees here or there and I don't think it is proven either way.

If I had to choose I'd probably give my kid a nice 56 or 58 and let them learn to hit all shots with that. And if they want to use a 62 or a 64 later (in their late teens or so) then fine.

[jomatty]

I became reliant on a 60° wedge at a fairly young age. I can hit balls backwards over my head and other nonsensical things. My flop shot game is tight! That said, I would probably be better off if I had not used it until at least high school. Eileen done it hopefully and still do. Most of my chipping is done with a 58° wedge now and I have no doubt I would do better if I really committed to learning how to chip with different clubs...

[leezer99]

Been playing a lot of golf with a new golfer the same age as my son. Dad has a lot of high level experience. It has been super interesting watching and listening to him teach the short game. The kid doesn’t have a 60.

[dpb5031]

Agreed. It's a completely subjective discussion with no absolute correct way to go about it. My personal opinion is that a 60 is a very valuable tool (especially on most US courses) and that learning to be comfortable with that much loft early in a player's development is a positive thing, but it shouldn't be at the expense of learning how to execute chips and pitches with less lofted clubs.

[heavy_hitter]

The key to all of it is knowing what shot type to play and when to play it. If you are stuck using just one club around the greens then you are limiting your short game to how good it can be. You can walk up to a ball off the green and have 3 different ways to hit a ball to hit it close and you choose which one you are the most proficient at. You can walk up to another ball and there will only be one way to hit the shot to get it close, where as you pick the wrong way and you are putting from 15 ft.

I have know problem with someone having a 60 in the bag as long as they know how and when to use it. I think more important to using a 60 is knowing and understanding how to use the bounce on the bottom of the wedge to pull off different shots around the green.

[straightshot7]

Supposedly Jack Nicklaus proposes using 1 club around the green as much as possible. He apparently used the sand wedge for 90% of his shots around the greens: Master The Method, Vary The Clubs - Greg Norman's Golf TipsGreg Norman disagrees with Nicklaus on that.

I prefer Nicklaus' approach because every club has slightly different weight/feel/bounce/grind, etc. and if you can master one you will feel more confident under pressure.

However, I suppose ideally you would master all of the different clubs and feel equally confident with all of them. But is there enough time to do that and is it possible?

Nicklaus seems to feel it is better to focus on 1 club.

[heavy_hitter]

Jack also wasn't great around the green. Not saying he was bad, but it was the weakest part of his game. He has even self admitted that.

[nova6868]

The kids are aged 6-8. I think of this from the coach's perspective. I would guess that the large majority of kids they teach not only are forced to learn many different shots without the 60 but that they score better as well.

Sure some talented kids are probably great with it but the coach is trying to have general rules that he teaches to all the kids. And I do think learning different types of shots as a kid is beneficial, they can always add a 60 to the bag when they're a little older.

[heavy_hitter]

When you play on grass with a lot of grain or that is damp around the greens you can't always use a wedge. Wedge can easily get caught in the grain if it is growing the wrong way. Wedge can also get stuck in muddy grass if the bounce and or grind isn't correct. Understanding how to use other clubs in those situations is vital.

[leezer99]

Likewise, out of a bunker with a long carry you really shouldn't be relying on just your 60 to get you out.

[heavy_hitter]

Can't tell you how many arguments I have gotten into with my kids over the years about this. Of course I am never right until they do it wrong.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

I think sometimes its the coach's fault for not giving the kid more information about potential shots. Kids don't know what they dont know.

I know personally I've watched my son pull out a 60 for everything within 20 yards.

Explain to his coach, please teach him other options. example uphill chip about 15 yards. Do you really need a 60. Out of 5 tries can you get closer with a 9 or PW.

My son used to go for the highlight reel shot each time and then crabby in the car on the way home.

[heavy_hitter]

Yep. At the end of the day it is calculating the best way to save strokes. It comes to a point, however, that if you are in contention to win you may have to try the hero shot with one or two holes to go. If you are 4 over with 7 to go it is about saving strokes and minimizing damage.

[BFD3]

One of the few tips I remember over nearly 30 years of reading Golf Digest is to get the ball on the ground ASAP when chipping and otherwise treat it like a putt. If you want it the ball to roll the same distance that you carry it, use a PW. If you want it to roll twice the carry distance, use a 9 iron, three times the distance, use an 8 iron, etc. Of course, it’s probably a gap wedge instead of a pitching wedge nowadays as the starting point and you need to adjust for uphill, downhill chips and the speed of the greens. I can’t help my kids with their swings but I have tried to get them to use this tip.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

Agree 100%. for me I have to use my gap wedge. My m4 irons are to hot. if I catch it in the middle that ball is gone.

 

Dont forget about the putter wedge.

[AC168]

I personally let me son and daughter learn with 60* and everything is fine.  But one legitimate argument in my view is similar to why tennis coaches don't teach slice backhands to younger players for a long time -- and this happened with my son -- once he learned how to hit a slice backhand, that was all he hit even in circumstances where it made no sense because he liked to hit "slices".  That being said, I grew-up with a 56* as the highest lofted club and went through a period of hitting all my shots around the greens as high as possible even if it made no sense.

[MB19]

On 11/13/2023 at 8:08 PM, AC168 said:

I personally let me son and daughter learn with 60* and everything is fine.  But one legitimate argument in my view is similar to why tennis coaches don't teach slice backhands to younger players for a long time -- and this happened with my son -- once he learned how to hit a slice backhand, that was all he hit even in circumstances where it made no sense because he liked to hit "slices".  That being said, I grew-up with a 56* as the highest lofted club and went through a period of hitting all my shots around the greens as high as possible even if it made no sense.

Yeah, kind of like teaching an 11yo a curveball and expecting him to only use it some of the time 😁

 

I'm likely pulling the 60* from my 12 yo daughter's bag for Sunday's tournament, as it has gone from a strength to a weakness as her swing has progressed.  Instead, I have weakened her 56* to 58* and weakened her 52* to 54* to match what my 10yo son has in his bag.  We'll see how it goes, but her 60* has been trash for about six months now.

[tssgj65]

On 11/17/2023 at 4:38 PM, MB19 said:

Yeah, kind of like teaching an 11yo a curveball and expecting him to only use it some of the time 😁

 

I'm likely pulling the 60* from my 12 yo daughter's bag for Sunday's tournament, as it has gone from a strength to a weakness as her swing has progressed.  Instead, I have weakened her 56* to 58* and weakened her 52* to 54* to match what my 10yo son has in his bag.  We'll see how it goes, but her 60* has been trash for about six months now.

Good analogy with the curveball...

 

I don't see enough toe down chips with 8 or 9 irons...  Every kid needs that shot.

 

I think another issue is hitting a 60 full and attempting to hit it 90-100 yards.  Kids will be kids and of course they want to hit all clubs long.  It is a distance control killer when they start to hit it full and deliver the club at slightly different shaft lean.  All said, the 60 is a great club around the greens as long as user error issues are eliminated and is applied as it should.

[MahalNeneng]

Inside 30 yards is the hardest discipline to learn. Every shot is different, no set rules to apply, creativity is a larger percentage than technique. Even more so for youth that are in the process of learning how the decision tree works in life. 
coach echoed same things to us and we settled on a compromise of minimum of 2 wedges go to rvery shot and a deciision must be made. 
we went through a bad stretch of the “low checker” is kewl phase, damn you Phil, but in the end its true even monkeys learn. 
thank god the boy can strike the ball and it carried him till his short game matured (still maturing)

Edited November 29, 2023 by MahalNeneng

[ShortGolfer]

Juniors may not have enough swing speed to effectively use a 60; mine won't go 40 yards with a full swing.  I can take full swings with my 60 in my back yard!  Doesn't reach the compost piles nor the understory.

A 58 may be more useful.

 

A useful shot is a short soft lob that just reaches the edge of the green.  If I thin it I can putt it from the other side.  Maybe not highlight material but I'll take a bogey if I miss the green and land in the rough.

 

Similarly, if I have an "unfair lie" where the ball will roll to the fringe or beyond I may very well accept a three putt to get out of there without blowing up the hole.

Edited November 29, 2023 by ShortGolfer

[leezer99]

21 minutes ago, MahalNeneng said:

Inside 30 yards is the hardest discipline to learn. Every shot is different, no set rules to apply, creativity is a larger percentage than technique. Even more so for youth that are in the process of learning how the decision tree works in life. 
coach echoed same things to us and we settled on a compromise of minimum of 2 wedges go to rvery shot and a deciision must be made. 
we went through a bad stretch of the “low checker” is kewl phase, damn you Phil, but in the end its true even monkeys learn. 
thank god the boy can strike the ball and it carried him till his short game matured (still maturing)

 

Here's a fun one you can do in the backyard.

 

Get that 8' ladder out of the garage and 9 red solo cups. Put a cup on each rung of the ladder and have your kiddo hit chip shots from 10 yards out trying to knock over each cup in succession.  

 

 

If you're wondering why I said 9 cups, well that extra one is for you to fill with booze to drown your sorrows when they skull f one into the neighbors yard. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by leezer99

[ChipNRun]

On 2/24/2020 at 12:46 PM, MB19 said:

A local pro (with a sterling reputation in this area among junior parents) told me during the (age 6 and 😎 kids' lessons that he was not a fan of the 60 degree wedges in their bags. I've honored his wishes by not having the kids hit with them since he's been instructing them, but I do wonder--what exactly is the downside?

 

On 2/24/2020 at 12:55 PM, TripleBogeysrbetter said:

I think it really depends on the kid. Maybe he wants to teach the art of bump and run or just chipping

 

I would caution that American golfers are addicted to the LW. I saw this during the 2014 Curtis Cup matches at St. Louis CC, which pitted American vs. English+Irish female amateurs.

 

The format was team match play, so walking hole marshalls got to see the entire contest.

 

Three times during the match, both sides were off the green and needed to get up-and-down for par. The Americans took a LW, dropped the ball 5 feet short of the pin on a false-front green, and watched the ball to spin back to their feet. The English-Irish pair would chip and run with a 7i, or putt from just off the green - much better results.

 

And, I have a personal bias. As a certified Baby Boomer, I was  hitting 7i chips and SW cut shots from greenside for 20 years before the LW appeared.

 

Also, the LW tends to be a bit of an odd club. It takes awhile for many to learn to use it - learn the full swing in the early going and add a LW in season two or three as a refinement. I hear pros give this advice to beginner adults too.