Fun, Tech Question if anyone wants to have a discussion- Lasering the Flag

[Exactice808]

Hello gang, interesting question here, I guess I followed status quo until one of my buddies played with me. HE is a new golfer and asked a simple question that TOTALLY bypassed me. Wanted to discuss and have thoughts with you all! This will be a discussion sorta, so a little detailed. So have fun with it!

 

Using your Laser

 

I have my laser and was shooting the flag for distance, I gave him the distance and then he turned around and said, hey if you shoot the flag thats not the actual distance as my trajectory and landing angle would actually be farther, the Top of the flag is 7ft to the base, the landing angle would actually be further right? I froze for a moment and said wait.....he is right? More so the closer we are to the flag, the angle is much greater, So if we are aiming for accuracy. This actually COULD affect accuracy.

 

The reason this came up is myself being prior military I have been taking him out to the other "Range" and teaching him about ballistics. Interesting enough there are correlations with golf and ballistics. Temperature, Velocity, drop, distance etc.

 

Ok so we go to the math side of this, using a right angle Triangle, using a 100y distance

 

A (Flag height) = 6.5ft

B (Distance to hole) = 100y

C (Hypotenuse of A&B) = 100.02y That is some what insignificant, By calculations

 

Anything beyond (increasing distance) is seemingly insignificant

 

But as we get closer the "C" Hypotenuse increased,

50y, C = 50.046

25y C = 25.093

 

considering @ 25 yards it is a 1 yard landing angle difference thats 3 ft you are giving up? Is it worth walking off the distance? Or the 1 yard is insignificant enough?

 

I havent applied this at all as it seems still somewhat insignificant, I am NOT a machine to say I can land a ball with a ridiculously tight dispersion to really matter. But I just thought of it as a fun discussion for a guy that likes reading ballistic tables, and trajectory optimizer. My game sucks so bad that any Legal advantage I can get, I will try. Anyone else had these thoughts or apply a rule of thumb like 100Y and in take off 1-5 yards when using a laser and not walking it in? Or is it that insignificant here for golf accuracy. I do notice for shorter shots into the green I tend to always go LONG, unless I hit a bad shot, is there correlation or is it just in my head?

 

I mean at the "other range" 1 MOA @ 100y = to 1" off target, 1MOA @300y is 3" off target, thats significant for accuracy at this sport and calculation.

 

I wonder how deep Dechambaeu thinks?

 

OK I am done LOL!

 

 

 

 

 

[mjbfyb]

There’s one problem. You’re shooting from your eye height, not the ground. The side of the triangle is not 6.5 feet.

[Sean2]

I have always factored in I would be shooting the top of the flag and not the actual hole itself.

[Exactice808]

AWWWW Good point! See this is why i have these discussions. I miss things, Shoot I do not even know if my right angle calculations are correct.

 

Great point! that we are not a true flat distance to hole. Before I DR google was this a reason for the choice of a 7ft flag?

[Exactice808]

OK So what do you factor? NOTHING ever has gone through my head on this one, I just shoot it, whatever number it says thats the number I got and hit my shot.

 

What are you "Factoring" if I may ask? Do you take of a couple yards? Or mentally try to land it short X amount? Just curious how people approach it?

[Z1ggy16]

So for a 50 yard pitch you're talking. 04 yards difference, I.e 1.44 inches between measured and actual.

So... Yeah not a big deal.

I've pretty much stopped using a laser altogether and just use a front middle back GPS. Until I become a world class ball striker, my goal is to get my irons on the green, period. It's a plus if I'm within 20ft.

[Ger21]

I've never played with anyone good enough to take advantage of a lasered yardage.

Just try to get it on the green, and you'll shoot better scores.

[rexroh]

What about shaft lean. That could alter the calculation. Also more so in strong winds. It could be inches out. Instead of an 8 inch put it could be 12 inches!!!!

[Z1ggy16]

Yes but the ball is hit from the ground, so it's even more complicated than that.

At the end of the day, you're talking inches of a difference, over the courses of hundreds of feet. Nobody is good enough for that to matter.

[scooterhd2]

the margin of difference is already insignificant, but factor in tolerances on the laser and its a wash. and that's not just tolerances on distance but also on slope as you are virtually never shooting from the exact same elevation. factor in things like wind, humidity, temperature, and nobody cares. if you are swinging different at 63.87 yards and 64 yards, more power to you.

 

a bigger discussion might center around how much you spin the ball back, if it all. a pro hitting into a flag that is 80 yards away is likely trying to carry a few yards past the hole, assuming a fairly level green.

[596]

I'm 6 feet 3. That flag is basically eye level to me. Which is level when using a range finder. If that flag is up or down in altitude, the slope on the range finder tells me the angle and "play" distance. On a level eye to flag, there can always be a few inches off as you never know whether you are shooting the top of the flag or the bottom of the flag, which is about a 12" difference. At my ability I can nearly guess the distance within 5 to 10 yards and it'll make no difference in club selection.

[jvincent]

If ever there was a sign it's still winter, this thread is it.

Unless you have better distance control than every PGA Tour pro, it doesn't matter.

I have a GPS and laser and use GPS the majority of the time. If I'm not sure where the flag is WRT to the edge of a green I'll use the laser to get confirmation.

[Socrates]

The distance from your eye to the top of the flag is the same distance as the distance from your ball to the bottom of the flag. Let me know if it is different.

[gioguy21]

when was the last time you shot the cup with a laser while layin on the ground - can't say i ever have? lol in jest of course but..i had to lol

[braincramp52]

Will there be a test after this?

[Z1ggy16]

Only if I'm as tall as the flag... Which... I'm not, so..

Either way, it doesnt matter because we're talking inches over a flat surface. It's a fun little thought but in the grand scheme... It doesn't matter.

[justasgood]

Yes.....Happy to help. Any other questions?

[Exactice808]

WOOO! this escalated quickly! Thanks all

Its seemingly insignificant to me but it was curious as the thought never pop even, though again correlating other types of ballistic data and how much more critical.

Ziggy then brings it back again, While I laser from the my 5'8" height the ball is then struck from ground level LOL. Wow this could really really go one way or the other. My other side point is drawing some kind of consistency. I realized when I was in the "instruction section" YouTube killed me..... So I am going to a very natural no thought swing. To establish a base consistency.

Then it hit me about my targets. I mean do I really have my distance and targets down. Measuring, used of balls at the range etc..... if I am here how far off am I
@jvincent as for actually accuracy, it again was a thought, I wasnt sure of the practical application so I thought I would throw it in the tech forum side for discussion.

[Exactice808]

 

Kinda my point... While it may be insignificant, I am assuming Dechambaeu is possibly calculating this far. I just thought it funny as all the years of relevance to my past life, barometric pressure, spin drift, Coriolis affect, humidity temperature, elevation, angle etc.... This didnt even come to mind for me, a new golfer hand to ask me and I didnt really know the actual affects of relevance or how to answer him at that point... I kinda froze and said... It must apply to a certain extent? But not much

 

Just something fun and random that popped up and was curious if others took it serious or not?

[Krt22]

You don't go prone to get your yardage? I thought everyone did that

[halliedog]

"Its seemingly insignificant to me but it was curious as the thought never pop even, though again correlating other types of ballistic data and how much more critical."

When trying actually kill someone/something, these things matter. When trying to get a distance in golf, not so much, unless you take the game way more seriously than I do.

I remember reading an article back in the day when Greg Norman was in his hey-day, and he said on his BEST day he could tell right after impact if he hit a club 163 or 161. I don't think most of us around here will get to the level of Norman on a good day.

[cristphoto]

Remember while the ball is in the air the Earth is rotating so be sure to lead the ball appropriately. Lag if you're a lefty.

[Exactice808]

In all fairness while I doubt most can, do so "Aim small, Miss Small"

 

It still applies, even putting, aim at a blade of grass. Etc... it is what it is.

[halliedog]

I was about to post a snarky reply to post #23, but I do agree with you on the blade of grass reference. The more focused your target, the less your margin of error. Part of my pre-shot routine is to stand behind the ball, pick the line, and look about 2' in front of the ball to pick out an old divot, a broken tee, a discolored patch of grass, whatever, and make sure that is my focus in aligning my body and clubface, and I play much better that way.

I do have control over that (the line I start the ball on) to a certain extent, but my skills are not refined enough to determine if it's going 100 or 97 based on a certain swing I put on it. If I was that good I'd be making a much better living and you'd see me on TV every weekend! However, if I was a sniper in the military and my own or my comrade's lives depended on it, I'm sure the minutia of of the humidity, elevation, temperature, etc... would be EXTREMELY important. I would obviously build out my bullets to fly at a certain distance in certain conditions when shot from a certain gun,and be able to adjust for the other conditions. But in the world of golf, your swing is the "gun" and the ball is the bullet, and your "gun" just isn't going to be as repeatable as the real gun, so we are splitting hairs over a few feet or yards of elevation change?

.

[bunta]

Somebody go get Bryson in here..

[Howard_Jones]

THIS....and the debate itself reminds me of debates of Laser vs GPS and tolerances....i was working for Sonocaddie in 2008 and mapped golf courses with GPS but was told "by the better players", they could not live with up to 3 feets as tolerances....after i became a club fitter i never saw a player who could place the ball within 3 feets on 2 strokes after each other, and we talk players with HDCP of 3-4 into the sunny side of Scratch, so for the average golfer it means nothing and is of pure academical interest. (i still use Sonocaddie GPS and have no problems with +/- 3 feets tolerance)

[Stuart_G]

I take advantage of lasered yardages all the time - and I'm a hack.

Get the yardage to the inside tree of a dogleg - add 10-20 yards and now I know the shortest club i need to hit.

Get the distance to the OB or woods on the opposite side of the dog leg or beyond the green and take off 20-30 yards to identify the longest club I can use.

Fairway bunker, laser the carry and add at least 10 if I can carry it or subtract 10 from the front if I can't and want to lay up behind it.

Get the carry yardage for a hazard, add 20 yard or more to pick the right club. And if that hazard is protecting the green, I don't care where the pin is.

And those are just a few examples.

 

But as far as the comparison to ballistics goes, there is one HUGE difference. Bullets dont' have backspin and their terminal velocity is a heck of a lot higher than it is for a golf ball, that means the decent angle is a LOT steeper for the golf ball and those small elevation changes really become meaningless to the end result.

[Sean2]

That shooting the flag does not indicate the true yardage to the hole...I make a three yard adjustment. But, to be honest, with my game three yards isn't that big a deal. I am no Ben Hogan, who anecdotally said to his caddie after the caddie gave him the yardage at "142-143", "Well," says Hogan, "which is it?".

[gioguy21]

hahaha i do but...when i do it's with a Remington MSR lol

[Exactice808]

I guess the side thought is, With how much "Tech" & specs are applied. Pro's play for a living. I am curious as to how far some will take it. As we can See Bryson goes to the upper limit. I remember when Aimpoint and Aimpoint Express came out, the science behind green reading is unreal and amazing all at that point.

 

Again I have no validation to my point outside of my friend asking, and was purely striking up a conversation with the forums. In the grand scheme of things it seems insignificant. But that little birdie in the back of my head says.... the difference of $1million+ is a single stroke.... So how far will some take it.

Again I just enjoy the total aspect of the game so to me this just seemed fun to dissect, how much of an actual affect it could or could not make. I mean 1* in lie angle seems insignificant, yet we get our lie angles checked and since a lie fluctuates how can we set our lie angle to X degree when its always chaging?

 

3* of loft seems insignificant but that is basically the loft gaps between sets of irons. So I guess I thought what would be the most effective way to maintain distances consistency. Considering the skill of pro's While I assume we can use an Iron Byron for say a 100Y shot I doubt its hitting hole in ones all day? (I could be wrong) But I assume pro's on a practice level are throwing surgical darts at the 100y marker.

 

Here is another side point, The WGC Mexico is some what of an example of my discussion. Altitude was the factor and the measured yardage vs actual yardage was an additional facet the players had to add in. Did some use rules of thumb take off 15% or did some go the extra mile, setup some type of LM device play a practice round etc and log everything? Again sorry this is just me enjoying seeing how far the rabbit whole goes and "went".

 

Thanks again all for entertaining me! And a little snarky responses dont bother me, I expected it with this kind of thread LOL!