Stem cell injections hand wrist arthritis

[juliette91]

Thanks David! My cost for two injection sites is $1600. Based on my experience with the stem cell/PRP mix, injected initially I am not expecting any miraculous recovery-and I’ve been forewarned, too.

Hoping that in 3-4 months I’ll see positive results but the bigger idea, since I have improved about 15-20% from preinjection is to not let the improvement decline further

[ZipinZ]

> @juliette91 said:

> Thanks David! My cost for two injection sites is $1600. Based on my experience with the stem cell/PRP mix, injected initially I am not expecting any miraculous recovery-and I’ve been forewarned, too.

> Hoping that in 3-4 months I’ll see positive results but the bigger idea, since I have improved about 15-20% from preinjection is to not let the improvement decline further

 

 

 

J91 .... to clarify, in Canada I paid $2300.00 for the initial Stem Cell injections in 4 locations in lower back, it took at least 6 months before I experienced positive results, it was more like 8 months. I've had 2 additional PRP treatments, one last October and the second was this past April, I paid $600.00 per treatment (new price $630.- $650.) which consists of 6 shots in the same areas in the lower back. I've experienced positive results from the PRP treatments after 5-6 months, I believe you may be disappointed hoping to see results in 3-4 months. I'm 64 years old, my doc suggested the PRP is considered a stem cell booster shot that helps your initial stem cell regenerate further & if you have arthritis like I have it takes time to heal. As for a positive result, this year I've got 43 rounds in, broke 80 the other day with 2 Birdies & had 2 Drives just over 280 yds. I take 1 Aleve either before or after my round and have very little back pain until I get out of bed the next day & have to do my stretching/exercises to loosen up.

 

Your doing the right thing vs going the cortisone/steroid injections route, but it takes time and you should reach your goal.

 

All the best.

 

David

[farmer]

Juliette, as a disclaimer, I know nothing about stem cell injections, but, man, I hope you get some relief.

[Barfolomew]

Interested in this thread as I have arthritis in hands, wrists, back, shoulders. Jumbo grips (golf pride CP2) have helped a lot and really like them better then standard now. Sometimes I'll make a weak iron swing cause subconsciously trying to protect hands... Range work cut way down.

 

Best of luck!

[juliette91]

Thanks for all your comments. As far as grips--Bartolomew--check out quantum grips. They're not street legal but depending upon the nature of your arhtirits they're likely the best out there as a grip aid. Range work? Ha! I had to completely give up on any range work. My condition limits me to a certain number of swings (that's what it feels like) and I might hit 5 balls before a round. That usually makes my first one to two holes more of a mystery but it allows me to play deeper into the round. Still frequently have to stop after 11-12 holes but that's just how it is now.

[juliette91]

Just another follow up. It's been 10.5 months since my stem cell and PRP injections. Unfortunately, I am back to just about pre injection pain with PRP (not stem cell) injections scheduled for early January. I guess the big idea in this kind of injection is to get follow up injections, if needed, before one reaches the condition I've reached. That way you've increased the pain tolerance.

[Pepperturbo]

I tested the AVX ball to see what the blabber was about. It's OK, similar to ProV so went back to my trusted ProV1X as it will spin and stop where I want. My backup ball is ProV. Not sure WHO AVX is for...

I tried a 5.5 ® but it still doesn't feel right so went back to "stiff". I suppose it costs me a yard or two off the tee but I know it's in the fairway. PX 5.5 tended left. Not sure whether it's in my ole head or I am just not ready, either way, the other day I walked off 18 with 4 over par so I B happy camper.

Not big on pills either so only use NSAIDS intermittently. When a person does what I have done to my body over the years, pain is just a consequence of living large.

 

PS, after spending further time with AVX, I am liking it, especially in the breeze. Dang, who would have thunk.

[juliette91]

wish I had the living large part along with this pain but glad you did. about 22 days ago I had so called "booster" injections of PRP only into my right hand and shoulder, about 12 injections total. still much too painful to swing a club but it's slowly getting back to pre injection pain. guessing that will be at about 8 weeks. If interviewed right now I would say I would not have these boosters again as they take me months to recover from. if they help and I improve over pre injection pain levels, I'd do it again but only if the effect lasted longer than 3-4 months. The complete down time I'm now experiencing that will likely last 2 months at least eats into the overall benefit and I have to weigh that. On my bad pain days don't ask.

[juliette91]

Three weeks have gone by and my condition has taken a quick turn for the worse. Now it could just be it was headed this way and nothing was going to stop in, the PRP injections temporarily stopping the slide, or I guess it could be some reaction to the PRP injections. No way to know. As a golfer I'm very disheartened and in the 3 times I've tried to play within the last week, I only managed 4 holes once, 7 holes the second time and 1 hole the third time. The pain of gripping while turning back is sharp and makes me lift my arms out of any swing plane with ridiculous results. Plus through impact I cannot hold on to the club. I did go to a website touting velcro grips and a velcro glove, very nice people to deal with, but that did not help. Their glove sizing hasn't quite made it to prime time and you need a very good fitting glove----otherwise the glove slides on your hands during the velocity of impact and while the glove's velcro holds on, your hand doesn't.

[juliette91]

What I started doing on February 21st was a very restrictive anti inflammatory diet protocol. Boo birds who don't believe that what you eat and when you eat it have anything to do with arthritis please understand I hear your sarcastic laughter and comments already but you need to do some research yourselves especially if you have one of these auto immune problems.

That said, here's my diet and I think I'll have to modify it soon as it's very hard to keep up without some additional carbs. no dairy, no grains of any kind--gluten or non gluten, doesn't matter--, no starchy vegetables, limited amount of deadly nightshades except no potatoes for sure. I'll see if I have any help after 10 days. Plus there's intermittent fasting, meaning 12-16 (closer to 16) hours between the last meal of the night and the next day's meal. Thaaaaaat's all folks!

[Tanner25]

Have wrist tendonitis, was almost healed and over stretched the wrist and now back to pre-steroid injection pain. Hope it comes back. Golf season is almost here.

[Barfolomew]

Good luck Juliette were pulling for ya.... hope the diet helps the hands!!

[juliette91]

Thank you for the kind comments Barfolomew. Well it's now day 14 and I have actually had some measurable relief. Of course this is anecdotal and it could be something else I'm doing or not doing that is the source of this slight improvement. But I have to go with the diet as the cause since it's pretty coincidental that the improvement dovetailed with it. Along with it I'm having chiropractic adjustments and massage so it's not easy separating out which of the efforts I'm undertaking is really the one helping me. Like most things in life it's more complicated.

By improvement I mean I was able to play 18 holes of golf with only losing the club 3 times. By losing the club I don't mean letting go of it, I mean the pain was too great and I instinctively pushed the head of the club to the sky to lessen its weight in my hands allowing the shot but yikes it's a loop even Jim Furyk would love--without the athletic prowess he has to pull it off.

Continuing on the diet, have only breached it a couple times (had apples in addition to berries). And waiting 15-16 hours after dinner before eating anything is pretty hard for me.

That said, for my first 18 holes in probably 3 months I was only 5 over on a 124 slope course. Updates every 3 weeks or so.

[juliette91]

weekly update. sticking to the anti inflammatory diet. tried to play a few times and actually completed 2 out of 3 rounds but after 5 or 6 holes the pain was too great and I did all sorts of club path maneuvers to keep the club more vertical to lessen its weight on my grip. Needless to say I'm no Jim Furyk so double loops only work in ice skating. Terrible results and the frustration of not being able to maintain a grip on the club quickly overtook the joy I used to get out of golf no matter how I was playing.

Changing the diet after consulting with an MD friend of a friend who also had back and hand osteoarthritis, and who fashioned a diet based on low or zero lectins. Some of the foods I do eat are high in lectins and lectins can easily lead to joint pain especially in areas where the cartilage has been greatly reduced. We'll see...

[juliette91]

Monthly update. I think I'm getting some results from the PRP "booster" injections that followed the stem call/PRP cocktail injections of a year prior. To recount: initial stem cell/PRP injections Feb 11 2019. PRP booster injections (only RH and Shoulder---initial cocktail in RH and LH and both shoulders) in Jan 2020. Along with this therapy I started an anti inflammatory diet about 2 months ago. It's pretty severe and I think detailed in one of my posts here. The reason I think the PRP is working as opposed to the diet or is exceeding the diet's effect, is because my LH is hurting a bit more now than my RH and prior to the PRP booster it was far below my RH in its pain. If the diet alone was responsible then the difference between my RH and LH pain should be the same albeit reduced for both. That the LH pain is relatively more now seems to indicate that the PRP booster--which was only in the RH--had an effect! Anyway, I do think it takes a lot more time for these injection therapies to show up or not show up.

[juliette91]

Going to add to my post of a couple days ago. One possible influential factor that is fairly easy to separate out in terms of its impact is the amount of sugar I eat. And this is not just me although the strength and location of its impact on your body may vary. Sugar is the insidious son of a b. h that metes its excesses in ways way beyond diabetes. I don't have diabetes, but when I ramp up my sugar intake (I'm not talking doughnuts and cinnamon rolls here, I'm talking too much fruit-way too much fruit) all sorts of pains pop up, in my thumb joint and in my feet bottoms, the extremities.

Anyway, some of you who read this thread--trying to solve your own physical conditions that are affecting your golfing ability--should seriously consider cutting way back on sugar. And you know that sugar to be sugar doesn't have to come from sweet tasting treats. White rice for example has more immediate glucose load than sugar itself. Get a hold of a "glycemic" index online and see what it is that you might be eating a lot of that pushes your internal sugar load way up. No need to see a doctor, just cut waaaay back and see what happens. Could be a cheap fix.

[Tanner25]

Good Luck, if you are playing in pain, it seems like you might be doing more damage than it's worth.

[juliette91]

could be tanner. for sure playing golf exacerbates the pain as opposed to ordinary activities. but I do love the time spent on the golf course and trying to improve. for me and many it's really not just a game as people often say when they're trying to downplay score. I get that for scoring but it's really much more than a game. Monopoly is a game, golf is a lifestyle. I want this lifestyle and will do whatever I can to keep at it. Thanks for caring enough to post that. I know I do what most consider whacky health remedies, from stem cells to anti inflammatory diets, but in the end all disease conditions, all, arise out of some kind of inflammation. Control the inflammation, control the condition.

 

[juliette91]

this will be the last comment, I'll delete this thread within a week. I've basically done more for this osteoarthritic hands condition than probably 99% of the people afflicted. Dietary restrictions to control inflammation, cortisone shots, stem cell injections, platelet rich plasma injections, grasston hand treatments, A Stim treatments, laser treatments (with 4000 laser, the most powerful), pulsed ultrasound, massage, chiropractic adjustments, plenty of water.

I can golf but after about 12 holes I cannot control the club as the pain makes it impossible. (have tried the baseball grip which does take pressure off the thumb but it's the joint that is arthritic and so it's not alot less pain + who do you know that can play golf using that grip?)

Hand surgery is the next step, something I put off because of its less than stellar outcomes and year long recovery. Planning to have this done in November. Both hands have this problem but my LH--which is just as bad or worse--does not quite come into play as my RH in golf since I'm left handed.

[ian1204]

Hi Juliette,

I've just discovered and read through this thread. I'm a 54 year old golf nut from Southport (I live near Royal Birkdale where Jordan Spieth won but not a member!). I've missed about 10 months golf in the past 2 years because of tendinitis and arthritis in my wrists. So I started reading for self interest/educational purposes.

All I can say having read the thread is I hope you get some significant improvement soon (by whatever method). You certainly deserve it. And Thanks for posting all the updates. All the Best, Ian.

 

 

 

[juliette91]

Thanks Ian, glad you found this before I shut it down, or maybe I shouldn't so others like you can find something like this? Anyway, just because not much of anything really worked for me doesn't mean it won't work for you or others. DNA is not DNA and the same for all of us. Some people who can't sleep swear by melatonin while for others that same dosage races their heart. One person's remedy is another's poison.

[b_f_c_99]

I have a friend who had his thumb joint replaced. It has been a over a year and he is still rehabbing but says it's getting better. He will hit a lot of shots with the thumb wrapped around the grip (is this what you mean by baseball grip?) He plays pretty well that way, not ideal with irons but pretty effective with a driver.

I don't see any reason to delete the thread, could be informative for a lot of people.

 

[b_f_c_99]

I have a friend who had his thumb joint replaced.  It has been a over a year and he is still rehabbing but says it's getting better.   He will hit a lot of shots with the thumb wrapped around the grip (is this what you mean by baseball grip?)  He plays pretty well that way, not ideal with irons but pretty effective with a driver.

I don't see any reason to delete the thread,  could be informative for a lot of people.

[juliette91]

Ok thanks for the feedback, will not delete it and will update as events unfold. I'd been putting off thumb surgery precisely because of the long rehab (18 months by anecdotal evidence of prior patients for this doc) and I'm just not sure that the surgery will resolve the pain. It's complicated in your hands.

[juliette91]

Not exactly a wrap up but some things I've discovered during my search for help. With a degenerative condition as I have--osteoarthritis of the STT joint right hand--it's almost always difficult to tell if a modality is actually helping or not. You know the condition will only get worse and you're really not sure if the modality is helping because you're not getting worse as fast or not getting worse at all.

Second issus is cortisone. Three of the hand surgeons I saw asked me if I'd had a cortisone shot for this condition but upon closer questioning of each one, all admitted that cortisone was highly unlikely to solve anything for any real period of time. All said the shots' efficacy would wear off with time and successive shots. None recommended it because the deleterious effects of the cortisone could cause a problem for years to come with join date.

 

[GLF4EVR]

Another, "Thank you!" for all of your work on this post. Thirty six years as an x-ray/CT tech can tell you things like this are invaluable to patients. I am coming close to 62 and have osteoarthritis in both hands, RH golfer. Rheumatologist started me on just straight glucosamine/chondroitin in my early 50's. Last year had to start 600mg ibuprofen in the morning & evening. Golf season got going about a month ago. Used my stimulus money to get a range membership along with the regular one. So hands have been a little more tender. I have tried the diclofenac topical that Pepperturbo spoke of.....didn't do much. But got lucky & found WalMart's brand of aspercreme works. Plus the veterinarian made Absorbine gel topical.

Having known about stem cell therapy for awhile, I have had the thought occasionally if it would be worth the try. Before reading this have always thought when insurance might cover some of it, might try it. Your post does not really alter my thinking. Just kind of confirms I am a stick in the mud and need sound science before taking the step. Took the rheumatologist well over a year to get me to take the stuff every day of the year. Right now I am happy he beat it into me!

Surgery is kind of a crap shoot. An old chest/vascular surgeon kind of had a rule he told me. When you go to see a surgeon and all they go on about is how much it will help....run for the door! When you see one and they tell you every positive & negative & want you to ask questions & talk about it....stay right there! Best of luck with the whole process. Really hope you can play 18 again with very little discomfort.

[juliette91]

thank you so much for your thoughtful and kind comments glf4evr. will check out the creams you're referring to: wamart's aspercreme and absorbing gel. I didn't mention this but I also tried a series (like 3 or 4) different marijuana cbd oil percentages. none worked. we were hiking in NW Mexico with guides from the famous running tribe in Copper Canyon, the Tarahumara, and even bought some of their homemade joint ache creams, comprised of peyote and some other concoctions. did not work either. I do think the stem cell/PRP and reboot with just PRP has had a positive effect because I can compare my two hands (which both show severe arthritis on X-ray) and one had the added PRP "booster" while the other did not. The "did not" hand is faring noticeably worse.

I think I have a good surgeon but another doc once told me "don't let anyone cut on your hands or feet" so I take that into consideration too. I would hate hate to give up golfing but if it comes down to being out of any kind of anything for a year with a 20% chance of that surgery not working or addressing the issue or having a complication I'd likely opt not to have it and continue on.

I'm very lucky that my partner is a functional medicine doctor, highly skilled in physical manipulation, and if I'm given a "treatment" shortly before golfing I can hold on to the club for about 3 holes without pain and another 7 with pain but not so bad I can't hold on to the club. After 11 holes or so I have to will myself not to let go of the club or re-route it in some ridiculous way to avoid the pain.

I find that if I concentrate on gripping the club primarily with the three bottom fingers of my top hand (I'm a LH golfer so it'd be my bad RH) I can hold on better.

 

[GLF4EVR]

You are most welcome! It really helps also that your significant other can help out. My wife is not a registered physical therapist, but has worked with rehab and conditioning of patients. Having that input always seems to help cut things off before I do any lasting damage. Then she was been deeply involved with horses since about 7 years old. So I did try the DMSO a couple of times. Worked great, but could not taste food for a couple of days. Being a person that lives to eat instead of eats to live....this was not good. One of the biggest tricks in medicine is finding out what works for each individual. So I have tended to do what I used to do when I was young, experiment...a lot!

I am a federal government worker, so have to avoid the cbd oil. However, under 4 years from retiring & that is on my list to try. Just to mention it, WalMart's brand of the regular heat rub is about the best also. It has the highest active ingredients of all of the others. Sure you have tried the regular menthol type of heat rubs...still had to toss it out. Really hope you can stumble onto something that at least can get you by for awhile. It sounds like your thinking is close to mine. Surgery is a last resort.

One to close with....the old saying if you don't use it, you loose it. Lot of truth to that. At least keep up with some exercises to keep the muscle strength going. Again, best of luck in your search!

[juliette91]

Thanks! Have used more potent forms of the Walmart cream-main ingredient sigh or both capsicum (red pepper extract) and/or menthol. Heat always feels good but that effect is short lived.

[juliette91]

update: first a review of what I've done for this osteoarthritis of both hands (STT joint exact diagnosis). Cortisone shots--lasted a few days only and further study of its effects convinced me to abandon it as a "therapy"; accupuncture, acupressure, prolotherapy, oxygen (injections, actually) therapy, stem cell injections ("cocktail of my own stem cells and platelet rich plasma-"PRP"), PRP follow up injections one year after the initial injections, physical therapy-10 visits, massage therapy, cold lasers both low level and the expensive 4000 something or other laser, "A Stim" (from physical therapists), Graston technique (chiropractor, basically a fixing of accumulated scar tissue and another way to bring healing blood supply to the affected areas), anti inflammatory diet consisting of no dairy, no grains of any kind-gluten or non gluten, no deadly nightshades (potatoes, tomatoes, pepper, eggplant etc.) and greatly reduced fruit sugar--and zero sugar additives. The diet had some effect I felt but it was so hard to maintain. I no longer practice it but lately have decided to implement the big parts of it again as my condition has deteriorated.

Surgery: met with a doctor who I trust would do a good job with the medical parameters now existing. It's a bit scary, losing the extensor carpi radialis, the tendon that gives strength to the forearm. but the doc says that in a year or so I wouldn't notice the difference much. (Emphasis on "much", for as we all know, we all know our bodies very well and any changes are immediately registered). Since it's in both hands, although my RH is much more important in golfing than my LH---as a LHander--that would mean 12-18 months of recovery for each surgery. At my stage in life that feels like way too much time for healing. And the kicker is that this good doc is not sure that if the surgery is "successful" my pain would be reduced. "Success" in medical land isn't measured so much by pain reduction as it is in doing what they set out to do with excisions and moving body parts around. And even that "success" rate is about 80%. Good if you're in a poker game with a likely winning hand, but maybe not the kind of odds where you'd easily go "all in."