My MOI matching attempt with club data from QCQUAD

[-MG-]

Hi all -
I've been a member for awhile and was fortunate lately to come into the possession of a QCQUAD. I'm about a scratch golfer, but never played in high school or college, other than 2 times a year when I was younger. I can be analytical when it comes to club data and love tinkering with clubs. I've been watching eBay for a good loft/lie machine to get into it more and soon here want to play with club making. Anyways, the concept of MOI matching is really interesting to me as I would like to make the effort feel equal in all of my swings no matter the length of iron.
I read a few posts where @Howard Jones references first starting with your favorite club, but then got side tracked on his discussion on potentially impacts low on the face are a sign of not enough head weight. I have a SW scale and my 8i is currently at D2. I was fit a year ago at True Spec and here is my current setup for irons (all PXG 0311T except for the 3i which is 0311P, shaft is True Temper Rifle Blank 7.0 Parrallel).
3i - 39.25" length - 19loft - 62lie
4i - 38.75" length - 22.5loft - 62.5lie
5i - 38.25" length - 25loft - 63 lie
6i - 37.75" length - 28loft - 63.5 lie
7i - 37.25" length - 32loft - 64 lie
8i - 36.75" length - 36 loft - 64.5 lie
9i - 36.25" length - 41 loft - 65 lie
PW - 36" length - 36 loft - 65.25 lie
My 8 iron seems to be the club I enjoy the most (I also tend to warm up with it all the time). So I thought I would start here. I added 4 grams to the head to see what that did and then also got shot data adding another 4 grams to the head. The latter is listed as 8id5, even though it likely is closer to d6. I would be curious on advance on how to start. The 8id5 category started feeling heavy to me. There is a lot of data there, and thought I would include it all for now.
ForesightReport.PDF
Edit: I should have added, looking for how to proceed at this point.

[Valtiel]

That is some good data! If you hadn't said that you were near scratch I definitely would have guessed you were at LEAST a better player given that you produced what could be considered almost interchangeable numbers with such a noticeable difference in head weight. Those numbers do suggest that you are able to adjust extremely well which can be a blessing and a curse as it means you have talent, but that it can also be really hard to settle on specific pieces of gear, hah.

Given the steadiness of the numbers, I would differ to feel here. Everyone has a comfort range in terms of weight and when adding head weight for testing purposes it is always good to hit that "this is starting to feel heavy" place as it signifies you're reaching the end of said range. I would say that backing off 2 grams from where you ended up and seeing if that alleviates any of that "starting to get heavy" feeling during extended testing would be a good thing to try.

Aside from having completely different irons design wise, you and I have a lot of similarities here. I too use Rifle 7.0 shafts and have my 8i right around the same weight (D4.5 but with a heavier grip, so probably closer to a true D6). I think MOI matching (or at least an approximation of it) is important for these types of shafts as they are descending weight. Once you get that feel dialed in on the 8i then I would just work towards using the swingweight progressions that Howard has detailed in his posts on the topic and continue referencing back to GCQuad and your own sense of feel to fine tune!

Btw, where are you located? I know someone that will be looking to sell a Mitchell Loft and Lie machine but obviously that would be a local pickup/drop off kind of thing.

[Howard_Jones]

Those numbers looks strange to me. Your face angle is closed 1.6 average to path (2.0 with added weight), and lie angle is 0.7 to 0.6 upright at impact, and still the ball ends to the right of target? (tilt is left but should be to the right with both face angle closed to path and a lie thats upright at impact..

.MAYBE you make impact to far out on the toe (face angle opens during impact, thats my guess since i dont know WHEN this LM measure the data, at start of impact or at full ball compression, it seems to be the first when return numbers looks like this.

The added weight made a larger variable for impact, so it seems to be to much. (deviation 4.4 vs 5.7 mm both ways from the center of the face).

Try to play around with head weight, but not as much as steps of 4 grams, thats A LOT, try steps of 1 gram and see if that make a difference, just follow the deviation number for impact vs center and make sure you dont have to many toe side or to far out on the toe.

[Howard_Jones]

ive looked the numbers over again, something is off here

Look at the last shot on the first session. Impact is center or 0 Heel, Path is 6.8 in to out and face angle 0.9 open to path, who means 7.7 open to target line.

For a right hand player this makes a Push Slice or Push Fade, but still the tilt is LEFT (make no sense) and the ball ends only 1.1 left off target, but should have been right of target and by quite a lot

Make sure set up of the LM is done correct. I dont know that LM, but for Trackman we start by finding our target before we start the session, your seems off with this return values.

Are you a left hand player?

[-MG-]

@Valtiel I'm located in Iowa@Howard Jones I trust the data from this user on another forum around the difference between Trackman and Quad: [FINAL RESULT] Trackman 4 VS GC2+HMT/GCQuad - Golf Simulator Forum He says that the club path will always show more open by about 1-3 degrees because the Quad has no way to measure the start point, but Trackman measures from the start of the swing. Face angle trackman calculates while the Quad directly measures it which he says means that Trackman shows about 1-3 degree more closed than Quad. I don't know for certain, but Quad is measuring right at or after impact as it is using cameras to capture the first 18" of ball flight. I believe it is more accurate indoors as the post above suggests.
To help us with this, I went to my club who has a Trackman and brought my Quad with me and hit several 8i shots with it. I combined the data to compare. Where I use Q that is referring to the Foresight Quad and T is Trackman. (Also, I am a RH player):
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/132/9BNDSMOJPJTA.jpg[/img]The second one in the picture above is perplexing like you mentioned, because Quad said I was 7.7R, yet the Path is 4.5 and Face would be .4, however, Trackman captures it better. One interesting point, even though the club head data from Quad shows that shot should have been way left, because it captured the ball data, it was similar to Trackman in a sense.
ForesightReport.CSV.xlsxThe pattern in most of the shows though as we can see is a miss left, I would like to work on stopping that. This data was 4g headweight above stock.
How do you advise I continue? I'm not quite clear that once we find the right weight, how the lengths vary after that? 3/8" and .5gram lighter as we go longer?

[Howard_Jones]

If you are using a SW scale to make a poor mans MOI match its 1.33 SWP pr inch, so if you choose 3/8" between clubs, its 0.49 SWP as progression

 

[-MG-]

So I am still at this playing with different configurations and building my own irons.

I'm playing right now with a 6 iron and a 9 iron and after slowly adding lead tape to the 6 iron I started really liking the feel and dispersion. To my surprise it came in at D9 on my swing scale! I am also using a mid-size grip that weighs 63 grams, so it is also changing the formula around.

I'm going to go back down the weight scale and see what results I get to confirm, but seems like having a 9i that is in the E's is ridiculous? How do you advise I continue?

EDIT: I did go and reread the posts above, and to the point above that I seem to adjust well to different swing weights, I'll search for what feels the best to me.

[hurley999s]

OP - I'm in a similar boat as you. Love to build my own gear, decent ball striker, and really got into the MOI stuff with Howard and some others. I ended up getting an MOI Auditor machine to record the values because I wanted it to be as accurate as possible. Anyway, here are a couple learnings along the way.

Don't worry about the "value" on the swing weight scale per se because you can have different clubs that feel totally different and have similar SW values. This is the point of MOI matching - it is to take SW to the next step and actually get clubs feeling a similar way. So just because a value may read E, don't let that give you pause on face value. If you put the required lead tape on and it actually "feels" too heavy, thats a different issue.

The important thing if possible is to try to reconcile the total weight with the swing weight if all you have is a SW scale and not an MOI auditor. Do you know the weights of your shafts? Of the heads? So basically if your tune up the 8i and get it how you like it - where you are hitting well and comfortable, as long as its the same shafts throughout the set, and head weight progressions are pretty static (like 7-8g), the next club down should feel very similar even though it will swing weight higher. Just remember the swing weight values are arbitrary, so I'd say go through the progress and don't pay attention to the actual numbers themselves, just that you get the right difference up and down from your reference club and you should be ok.

On another note, I'm having a related, but slightly different issue myself.

This last piece is currently giving me some issues in my next build because I did a TLT fitting (basically the length difference between irons isn't static - there's less difference in shorter irons, and more in longer irons. Also, it means my shorter irons are much longer vs standard than my long irons. For example, I think my 4i is +0.25" vs standard, but my PW is something like 1.25". I prefer this because I dont want to bend over as much with the shorter clubs. My issue however, is that my previous 4i is the club I hit best and wanted to match MOI to. I play heavy shafts also and heads (Miura), so it wasn't like my reference 4i was light. I knew my head weights were high, so I decided to build the PW first, knowing it'd be a tad high. Well, with the extra length, it came back about 30 points high on the MOI scale (for reference my 4i was around 2815 and PW came in at 2850. I took it to the range to hit it, and I eventually got over the heavy feeling, but my ball striking was very poor with it. So now my options are cut down the length or drill out weight...and I dont want to put ugly drill ports in the back like Schwartzel did, so I need to find a machine shop and see if they can remove prob 6-8g from the hosel bore. Howard or anyone else, does this seem the best path forward? Like I said, I really like the extra length in the shorter clubs so I don't really want to mess with that unless I have to.

 

[Howard_Jones]

Length is the most important of all parameters, and you like it as it is, then its head weight that has to be taken down, so im adding a hosel drill chart.

[hurley999s]

Howard, thank you very much for sharing - that is very helpful. I don’t want to take away from OP’s topic, but one thing I noticed in your chart - perhaps you could clarify for me if I’m misinterpreting.

Weight of steel is 7.9g/cm3. But shouldn’t the column ccm3 show these values moved over a few decimal points - top row should be .471cm3? (4.71 is if you did mm3). Then if you apply .471 to 7.9g/cm3, the amount of weight removed in this case (top row) for 5/16 bit at 3/8 would be .471*7.9 = 3.73g weight removed. In the chart it just has 4.71 again.

[Howard_Jones]

Fixed*

[BREWMASTER95060]

 

KBS 130

and

TT Dynamic SL S300

shafts are ascending weight 5 gram gaps between shafts lead tape added 14 " from butt

swing weight and MOI matched.

12 gram gap in total club weight between clubs