"3* of loft seems insignificant but that is basically the loft gaps between sets of irons"
In the longer irons, yes. In the shorter ones it's typically 4*.
The flag clearly doesn't matter. But when you're in a simulator and you block or pull your drive 4* to either side, at 240 yards, are you in the fairway ? THAT matters.
I've used some of the sim data to figure out just how far I missed(?) the fairway (to the right - I'm a righty) with my driver while testing it. If I block it say 4* right, am I in the fairway ?
If I hit it 4* right and it's drawing, am I good ?
Of course if I see the ball drawing towards the center line on the sim I know I'm OK but when it starts even wider than 4* and it's drawing but it's not too near the center line, am I good ?
The calculator I used shows me that at 240 yards, 4* will put me slightly under 17 yards to the right of center. So if the fairway is 35 yards wide, a pretty decent average sized fairway, and I'm 4* right, I'm good.
Draws to the left of center though are problematic as the sim doesn't tell me how wide the ball ends up so that's a bit of a guess, starting it left and it's drawing more left. The "sidespin" number isn't that easy to translate into degrees or yards wide. Oh well.
My experience says those using range finders are slow golfers. I hate to see one. If in doubt, use a simple GPS such as one worn on the wrist. A quick glance and yardage is displayed close enough for 99.9% of all golfers.
if I have 131 I know what my shot options are immediately ... I’m not trying to hit it 131 necessarily
I would use a watch for that too, but a watch would have been nearly useless to me in my last 2 rounds. I was playing 2 courses where there were many hazards (ravines and bunkers)that I needed to know distances to or carry over to decide what to hit. I would have loved to have had a GPS on the cart, but that was not available. The laser gave me the information I needed to make good decisions and maintain a good pace of play by not ending up in hazards or terrain that would have been hard to play out of.
OP, I think you need to ask your buddy again what he meant. From your description, he seems to have been talking about (I presume, ball) trajectory and landing angle, and you went in an entirely different direction with your analysis of laser trajectory.
My experience with lasers is the same as with carts. When used properly they are no slower than anything else. I rarely play first off the tee so while others are hitting I laser the fairway, bunkers, trees, etc
I find the rangefinder incredibly useful, especially on strange courses. Have a tree guarding a dogleg ? Can you get over ? What's the GPS going to do for you ? As well, lasering that same tree can tell you whether you can get past it while staying near it or if you should play well clear of it.
Lasering different such targets on a particular fairway gives you a much better idea of the shape of the hole and where you should be playing your tee ball.
And then there's accuracy. I just recently decided that, in the case of a back pin, lasering couldn't really tell me how far it was from the pin to go off the back of the green (and worse) because I couldn't shoot anything over the back. So I found myself too often taking less club to ensure not flying over the back. So I decided to get a GPS watch (again) and try wearing it. I figured, with the watch telling me how far the back of the green was and the laser telling me where the flag was, I could now know how far past the pin I could get and still be OK.
The watch, a Garmin S20, on a very regularly shaped (round-ish) green told me 65 yards to the back of the green. The rangefinder told me 67 yards to the flag. Watch went on eBay that night.
On a side note: most greens are usually 30 yards deep, give or take. For example, if the pin is in the middle of the green with a hazard in front and I am 150 yards out I know that the back of the green is probably 165 and the front is 135. Given that I don't hit the ball solid every time, I will hit my 160 yard club knowing if I miss-hit it I will still likely end up on the green. However, if I take my 145 club and miss-hit it, I will likely end up in the hazard in front of the green. Even if I flush the shot at worse I will likely be on the back of the green.
Treat yourself as if you were someone you are responsible for helping. Jordan Peterson
Too much sanity may be madness and the maddest thing of all is to see life as it is, and not as it should be. Cervantes
In golf, the human mind has much higher capabilities to screw things up than the physics has to make things better. Unknown
I'm scratch and I couldn't care less about a couple of feet. If my rage finder says 170 then I'm pulling 7i and trying to stuff it.
I've played tournament golf with pin sheets so exact differences were known. There's no difference in having pin sheet distances and a range finder distance.
Put it this way, before range finders all you had was yardage markers and front/middle/back flag colors. Range finders give a lot more accurate distance info than those old days.
And yet the majority of golfers never hit it past the flag unless they blade it.
If I am standing perpendicular to the ground and the flag is standing relatively straight up, the distance between my eye and the flag is pretty much the same as from my foot to the hole. Any difference between these two distances is negligible. The ball goes from the ground, close to where you are standing, to the hole in the ground.
I don't get it. What 3 yard error(?) are you correcting for?
I, too disagree. It isn't laser range finders that make golfers slow, it is the slow golfers using laser range finders that are slow.
Driver: Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 (-1/D)
3W: Callaway Epic Flash 15° (+2/N)
5W: Callaway Epic Flash 18° (+1/N)
Hybrid: Callaway Big Bertha 4H (-1/N)
Irons: Callaway Apex '19 5-AW
SW: Callaway Jaws 54°S
LW: Callaway Jaws 58°W
Putter: Odyssey Toulon Portland with Stroke Lab
Ball: Callaway 2020 Chrome Soft w/ Triple Track
The top of the flag to the actual hole.
If you want to know the distance from the ball to the hole, measuring the distance from your range-finder to the top of the flag won't produce an error larger than 1 inch, if you stand right next to the ball. I bolded stand, because standing should put your eyes / range-finder about level with the flag, so the measurement error is minimized (and is very small to begin with in any case, as already worked out by others earlier in this thread).
Thanks for that. :-)
In the Basis of the questions again I think, through the thread I some what thought I explained myself.
Correct, The presumption was the Trajectory and thus the landing angle Again remember the question came from a brand new golfer with limited knowledge so it was very basic question. If we think perfection, the idea is to land the ball in the hole? (Hole out/hole in one) If we shot the angle of the flag and plugged that into a right angle triangle to assume the Hypotenuses. The longest leg would be different from the leg. This again was basically found to be "realistically" insignificant to any human golfer. But the question was asked, as my subconsciously I knew already that it was insignificant, But my buddy, a brand new golfer and having the other range fresh in his mind and the depths of ballistic tables I went over with him had as a very innocent but honest question.
My analysis, evolved based on the conversation with the members here, by providing counter arguments and additional info to then question my original questions.
Height of flag vs, height of golfer shooting the flag, (Didnt think about that either) As the zero point of the original was thought to be a right triangle, but ACTUALLY its now a Isosceles, making the gap even SMALLER and insignificant.
So its evolving and just a fun question hence the starting word of this thread, fun not to be taking too serious!
Respectfully disagreeing as well, I actually have BOTH, a GPS running and a Laser.
1) My game sucks so I spend a lot of time (In jail-Trees) So I I cant laser a target well in the trees. I need to use the GPS to give me total yardages and I back out based on the layup yardage
2) The laser is when I have a direct line of sight, and its quick and efficient.
3) REALISTICALLY at the level of my game play I am trying to hit the biggest part of the green period from 150 and out, and anything in from 150 Ill will try to go aggressively to the flag unless its stupid conditions (into the wind up or down hill, short sided by feet to a bunker etc)
SO, Playing slow is relative likely to the player and not necessarily the fault of the GPS
Hey NSX! Thanks for the response. I might derail this but again was sorta of the point of this thread, just in depth specifics to potentially meaningless questions.
4* Path, produces a specified shot shape, now add in the face angle and we have X shot shap.
4*.... 100% agree... from target line @ 240yards, is it in the fairway, depending on the face angle. Who knows.
Do we as humans have that kind of control @ the speeds that we swing, Sure 50mph seems possible, but what about those touring guys at 120mph. I assume the anomalies, But to think wow we can control the swing path 1-4* and face angle 1-4* to produce a shot shape, isnt that amazing. So if this 1* - 4* for a swing is critical. NOW I am loading my own question, Tour players dont use laser during their stipulated rounds, but during practice rounds to get a lot of data. (I am actually curious how much data they got in those books as I have never seen one before) Anyways, They pace and walk off a lot and use known distances (Like we did in the military when doing range estimations) But ever single advantage should be taken?
I am NO WHERE implying to slow play down as GOODNESS this sounds like I am doing a Dechambaeu but my brain takes these into account and then I just execute. I dont have a Sim, but I have always been curious as well about swing path and face angles. I will admit, I strike the ball relatively well, but my path and face angle control STINKS to high heaven, and the I am all over the planet. So I have been curious on how to control it and understand it so I can apply a realistic shot shop that I lack.
Anyways thanks again!
"But to think wow we can control the swing path 1-4* and face angle 1-4* to produce a shot shape, isnt that amazing. So if this 1* - 4* for a swing is critical."
You want to be really amazed ? Take a look at your watch. From 12, 1 minute right (or left of course). Pretty small distance, isn't it ? That's 6 degrees. LOL
To be fair, so close to the origin it looks really small, but extend the diff between 12 and the 1 minute either way for any substantial length and you get to see how wide that 6* angle really is,,,,,,,
But that said, your face angle at impact needs to be smaller than that "1 minute to" to "1 minute after" angle.
How's that for amazing ? LOL
Which is why every pro works on setup so diligently. If you are in a poor position at address, there is very little chance to get to impact in the proper position. Give or take a degree.
Not sure if you caught my initial post, but my prior life required me to be accurate beyond a single Minute of Angle. My team and myself actually depended on it. LOL. So considering the accuracy required, and thinking about golf that is why I paused when my buddy asked the question.....To me the effects of a single MOA @ 100y = 1" but at 1000y thats 10" you can miss completely. Thats just a single MOA, not factoring anything else, spin drift, elevation, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, Coriolis effect, flight times, wind, velocity, sound barrier....the list goes on and on, after 500y (depending on caliber) ALL of these play a factor.
So absolutely your point well taken. To me though I have the ability with tools to be able to measure all these and calculate it. Golf Not so much and not so much in a regular round of golf. So is prior planning something these tour pro's do. OR do they just have it naturally and basically "Genius" level golf LOL.
Its a fun curiosity, I seem to have
Regarding the value of a range finder vs a GPS device, vs relying on course markings (sprinkler heads, barber poles, etc.).... All these options are directly correlated to the skills of the golfer. I, as a 3-5 HDCP, would never want to only attempt to only hit a green... or, guess what it takes to carry a bunker or pond. But my beginner buddies need only to worry about matriculating down the fairway in a reasonable amount of time. As with life, it's ALL relative.
I would of been like "Shut up Kyle, Do you want the yardage or not"!!!!
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