Dean Snell's Video on the Distance debate

[Titan2113]

They’re not though...it isn’t possible at a quarter inch to get 12 feet on a stimp meter without outside factors such a slope or inaccuracies in measuring.

attached is a link from Carnoustie where players remarked that the fairways were often faster than the greens prior to the most recent Open Championship held there. They averaged 9 feet 6 inches which is quick no doubt.

im not sure why it’s so misleading but NO ONE is cutting fairways at .250 or stimping 12 on their fairways without an outside influence (wind, slope, in accurate measurements).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/ftw.usatoday.com/2018/07/british-open-fast-fairway-carnoustie/amp

[Pingfitz]

IMO... Dean made very good points.

[storm319]

ANGC is an extreme outlier and becomes the focus of exaggeration on this topic due to its high visibility (frankly ANGC doesn’t need saving due to the amount of money the club brings in due to the Masters). If you compare most of the other “classic” major hosts you will see that distance increases average around 5% since the 20s/30s. According to the USGAs report, distance increases between 1930-1980 vastly outweighed increases after 1980.

[oikos1]

 

#13 at Augusta plays 455 for the members. That means a drive of 240-250+ and some can go for it in two. And the course is still relevant for both ams and pros.

 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

It doesn’t get much more exciting than the back 9 on Sunday at the Masters from a viewer standpoint. It feels like anything can happen. With two par-5s that are extremely reachable, yet heavily guarded by architectural elements, and the Sunday pin on 16, I wonder why that is.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Double post.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

10 players in your group? I can see why you think pace of play won’t be affected?

[ALIF]

^^^^^^This x infinity!

[Maximilian]

It’s still a fun hole, but don’t you agree it used to be more exciting than it is now? Back in the day it was a huge advantage for those that dared to draw the ball around the trees to the left side of the fairway as it would give you a much flatter lie and improve you chances of going for it in two. With the ball way above your feet on the right side of the fairway, that creek was much more in play.

Now, even though they’ve already lengthened it, pretty much everyone has a mid to short iron left and everyone “goes for it”. When Bubba just bombed it over the corner past all trouble and gave him a wedge from a flat lie left, that was pretty awesome. But in my opinion it’s not too much fun when that shot becomes the norm instead of a one off thing.

Augusta has bought more land behind the tee so they can lengthen it again. But they are now waiting to see if there will become a ball rollback which would make that unnecessary. So either way, eventually the 13th will play more like it used to, putting the risk reward aspect back into play.

 

 

[storm319]

ANGC has spent over $200 mil buying land boardering its property over the past two decades and most of that 270 acres had little to do with the course directly. Most of the intention has been a) privacy and b) infrastructure for the Masters. Additional land to buffer the club from the rest of Augusta is really important to them (the city is kind of a dump).

 

Quote from Bill Payne:“And as it relates specifically to 13, which seems to be the subject du jour, we think there are multiple options where we could increase the difficulty of the hole and restore the shot values, only one of which deals with extending the length,”

 

When asked about implementing further restrictions on balls and/or equipment for the tournament:“not something we would want to do.”

 

[Maximilian]

If I remember correctly, they said they were not interested in applying a Masters specific ball, but seemed more positive to the idea that the USGA did something to roll back distances.

But regardless, if they can do something other than increase the length to restore shot values, I’m all for it!

[storm319]

Move up to the member tee box and change it to a par 4 for Masters week only.

[Maximilian]

But it’s such an iconic risk reward hole! That would be a shame in my opinion.

[Maximilian]

And since they already have more land behind the tee, might as well lengthen it. I can almost guarantee that is what is going to happen if the ball is not rolled back soon.

[cougarthesecond]

Excellent comments by Mr. Snell, who has poked so many holes in this phony "roll back the ball" spiel, which is mainly used for click bait by golf bloggers, writers and commentators when ratings are down.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Agree, but as we’ve seen in many responses here, not everyone seems to be interpreting what he said the same way.

“Click bait” is the best term I’ve heard for ball rollback.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

What are shot values? How are they measured?

[gvogel]

You're a player; you should know.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I don’t. Is there a unit measurement? I’ve only heard of shots being measured as one stroke.

[gvogel]

It is called degree of difficulty. Would you rather be playing your second shot on 13 with a 4-iron or an 8-iron.

Please tell you realize the difference in the shots with those options.

[MountainGoat]

Have the Member Tee yardages changed at all in the last 20 or so years?

[oikos1]

The way you are using "shot value", it's completely subjective to the individual. And since you mentioned options, isn't that the beauty of golf. If I take a risk, my options change. If I play as the designer "intended", I'm limited.

[storm319]

Exactly. If people are going to use shot value (subjective optics) as a reason for an extremely impactful regulatory rollback, it should be quantified and goals set for increases in this quantified value as a result of the rollback otherwise you are just throwing cr@p at the wall based on conjecture hoping something sticks.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

I thought it was called shot value.

In terms of what I’m guessing are called International Shot Value Units (“ISVU”), does the drive that gets me the 8 iron in receive more ISVUs than yours that gets you the four iron in? Or, is the drive given a lower ISVU measure because “anybody can just bomb it down the fairway these days”? What if I intentionally feather a 5 iron instead of hitting the hard 8? Is the 5 the better shot? Do you get to cash in your ISVU balance at the end of the round?

i have to say I’m digging this idea. I play with guys who bomb it past me on their way to shooting lower scores, and I’ve been looking for a way to inform them that I’m actually on their level. ISVUs might be the ticket.

[oikos1]

Lol. You better copyright “ISVU” immediately. I see book deals, high-handicapper instructional videos and PGA Tour range guy Guru status in your future.

[gvogel]

No, it's your drive back in 1980 where you have 4-iron in, compared to your drive tomorrow where you have 8-iron in. We're not comparing you to me, which would be apples to orangutans.

[storm319]

Considering that modern lofts are almost universally stronger vs 40 years ago, comparing the number on the bottom of the club is not an apples to apples comparison either.

[The Pearl]

I doubt there is any serious data to back these claims up. Anecdotally perhaps, but this stuff is not happening at your local muni which is really at the heart of the debate. Besides , logically, hitting cars or houses is function of poor shots with hook or slice spin. Making the ball shorter AND with more spin which is going to be a component of any rollback is going to add to the problem, not solve it.

 

[The Pearl]

I agree here. I play dozens of your typical muni courses in several states each year. Distance is never an issue, ever.

[The Pearl]

The Straw Man has entered the building.