USGA DISTANCE INSIGHT

[farmer]

To the Nicklaus guy quote, I wonder if demographics are the driving force? High end clubs that can afford a NIcklaus redo are probably seeing their membership get older, so they want

[farmer]

a course that is more playable. ^^^^

[sevenputts]

Lots of golfers will want to be playing the pro rules. I would. Keeps with the spirit of the game. Just slow the course down and grow the rough. Put a major emphasis on accuracy, and the distance “problem“ is gone. Leave the equipment, ball where it’s at. The game is in a good place.

[Mudguard]

The majority of those that I play with (most single figures) seem to care very little what pros do. Only one will have the shaft that Tiger used in his driver etc. Growing the rough doesn't really help. The pros are showing that it's preferable to have a lob wedge in from rough than it is to have a seven iron in from the fairway. NB I have no issues with leaving 99% of golfers alone, IE amateurs, if distance is a problem at professional level, then the ruling bodies can do something about it for professionals. Let us plebs have long putters and normal compression balls.

[Titleist99]

Soooo, you want to bring the pros distance back to the level of the single digit players? I'm sure a lot of golf fans will pay to see that.... (SARCASM) The PGATOUR sells distance. the manufacturers sell distance

Just watch any golf coverage commercial.

[Titleist99]

Watching the 2000 PGA with Bob May and Tiger Woods, Tiger regularly hitting drives well over 300yards, I remember Tiger proofing ,,,,,,,,How'd that work out? I don't recall Tiger asking for a ball rollback then.....

 

[Mudguard]

I'm not saying there is a distance problem. I'm not really bothered how far pros hit it. That's the reason they're professional, they generally hit it further and straighter than I do. What I'm saying is I don't want the ruling bodies to make a rule change that affects amateurs. Like the long putter rule, for older guys with spiys or back problems the belly and broom were great, they weren't out there dominating their local haggle because they had a long putter. But a few guys won some majors and the R&A/USGA decided they didn't like the look so they banned it's (intended) use for everyone.

I know plenty of GolfWRXers are against bifurcation but the reality is professionals are already playing a very different game, if they have a low compression balls for Tour Events then so be it, I couldn't care less, they'll still hit it miles, but if it keeps some of the classic courses on the rota then even better. But Joe 90 shouldn't be penalised by it. Hell ball prices might even drop if we don't have to subsidize them.

I've always wanted to know how many balls Titleist supplies to Tour Events vs the number of balls are actually sold.

[Titleist99]

If tour players hit the ball a maximum of 260 yards off the tee tomorrow those classic courses will never return to the major rotation due to infrastructure and other reasons.

[gvogel]

While that may be the case, if another ball spec (and maybe driver spec as well) is developed for older courses, highly skilled players may be able to play the older courses with more of a challenge. Highly skilled players would probably enjoy that.

You wouldn't, as you have stated repeatedly.

[Titleist99]

LOL!.......One thing for sure, touring pros don't play for pleasure, legacy or sentimental reasons.....they play for cash$$. If a tournament is not played on a course neither will they. The payout at the end of the competition is all they're concerned with. They'll leave the legacy, pleasure stuff to the amateur ranks.

[Naptime]

Jack had a good comment when asked on air about BD's drives. Basically said good for him if he can do it. The OBx2 10 shotter hole is the other side of the BD coin. Narrow the fairways between 250-400 yards from the tips, grow the rough higher and have some OB for the pro tournaments. None of that impacts normal hackers on a normal day of play. If you can consistently drive and keep it in the fairway you deserve an advantage off the tee.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

There will, however, be many more deluded golfers thinking about becoming pros. I look forward to the thousands of threads asking “If I should go pro”. Haha!

[smashdn]

It didn't work all the well long term. The equipment has basically negated all those instances where distance was added. As long as they hit the ball farther (for whatever reason(s)) this will be an ongoing issue of catch up.

Altering the course doesn't work unless you make it so incredibly penal a missed fairway costs a shot. That forces an iron into their hands. Which is anti-distance. Which is not what is attractive to the bulk of pro golf fans. So it will continue down this path until there finally is a straw that breaks the golf camel's back. I am thinking extreme water use restrictions or death by golf ball might be the only things extreme enough to cause a pause.

[Naptime]

Personally I like seeing guys lose a shot for getting into trouble unless they have an epic recovery shot. Would love to see a composite score care made from the worst score for each hole in a round made by any pro. Would figure more than a few bogeys and others. I could relate to that scorecard, as could most of the guys I golf with.

[Titleist99]

AS I've said many times......The PGATOUR has things exactly where they want them. The tour is great manipulators of the score at there events and that score is what ever entertains the fans. The tour is not in the business of preserving classic course or protecting par. It's all about money even if it means getting in bed with the manufacturers.

[Mudguard]

All the more reason to have different equipment/rules for those that do it for a living vs those who play for a handicap.

[gvogel]

So you are saying that some of the touring pros who go to Ireland to play golf for a week before the Open Championship - they don't do it for the experience of playing the old classic courses there, they only do it because ... well they are paid to do it by golf touring companies? Tommy Fleetwood came over and isolated in Long Island and played Shinnecock, The National and Maidstone. But he was just putting his time in with friends, and not enjoying some of the great old golf courses on Long Island? (You might want to find out directly from Tommy about his experience on those golf courses.)

I grant that some of the best players on Tour might be only teeing it up for money at this point. But I am also guessing that some of them get a real kick out of playing the classics.

I am guessing that a guy like Rory McIlroy gets pretty excited to play the Open Championship at Royal Portrush (too amped up for his own good in the first round), as opposed to playing one of the TPC undescript courses that he plays from time to time. hey, ask Rory if he would rather play the Old Course or TPC River Highlands, and get back to us.

Look, these guys play for money, and win a lot of money. But the best appreciate playing on a really great old golf course. Rory's Dad is a member at Seminole. I am guessing that Rory enjoys playing that great old course from time to time, because it is a great old course.

I think that your statement is way off base.

[ThinkingPlus]

Sure they enjoy those great courses just like any of us would. They just don't usually pull out their set of hickories and sleeve of gutties to make it an authentic challenge anymore than most (you being an exception) of us would.

[storm319]

I believe that comment was in reference to American players. The two examples you listed are British.

I am sure if you polled the entire PGA Tour whether they would be willing to play classic courses for a fraction of the purse vs the common stadium format for the currently historic purses that we see today, I’d be willing to bet the vast majority would choose the money.

[gvogel]

Unfair comment.

Would the PGA Tour pros be wiling to play old, classic courses with equipment suited to playing those course, for the same equivalent money as a TPC something? I think that a bunch of them would play with reduced equipment, if the money on offer was the same. Particularly the guys who can really stripe it. Because the best players would actually benefit.

[gvogel]

Thinking Plus, none of the roll backers on this site are contemplating hickory shafts and gutties. Golf was in pretty good hands with 200 cc wooden headed drivers and somewhat spinny wound balls. There were certainly some fantastic tournaments in the Jack Nicklaus, Tom Watson, Greg Norman eras.

On the other hand, if we could go back to gutties, we could hold championships at 5,800 yards, and the players could go back to playing two rounds in one day. Not a bad outcome! See: the US Amateur in the 1915's through the 1920's, and the PGA Championship in the same time period. you play in the morning, you have lunch, and you have your next opponent in the afternoon. Or, your matches are 36 holes, the better to get rid of a lesser opponent's hot stretch as to not be indicative of the final outcome. Bobby Jones hated an 18 hole match in a national championship.

[ThinkingPlus]

Actually the consensus minimum has been 20% rollback which would drive equipment to pre steel shafted persimmon and balata ball performance. The hickory/gutty reference was a bit hyperbolic, but steel shafted wooden heads and balata won't get 20% and anything less won't change the bomb and gouge optimal scoring paradigm or keep the Merions of the world relevant in any other condition, but deep rough/narrow fairway trim.

[storm319]

The lack of space for infrastructure and the modern spectator gallery is a far greater barrier for many of these classic courses hosting a PGA Tour event than playing length inadequacies. The R&A’s dismissal of Prestwick from the rota in 1925 is a great example of this as the decision was due to spectator overcrowding, not any inadequacies with the actual course (the fact that Prestwick was the original Open host is makes this an even bigger deal).

[klebs01]

the consensus isn’t anywhere near 20%. Probably in the 7-10% range. Nothing will get rid of bomb and gouge period. Old wives tails have been proven wrong with data. The rollback is to reduce safety issues, reduce the amount of land needed to have a course that provides a variety of shots, and improve the pace of play.

[GolfTurkey]

All this talk of hickory shafts makes me want to fire up my smoker!

[Golfjack]

A bunch would play with equipment that they are totally not used to? They have put up videos of them hitting the old hickory clubs, and while some fair better than the others, most wouldn't play with those for money. Also, flip side of the coin, is there an audience that wants pro's to be hitting hickory shafts? They might as well just ask pro's to limit modern clubs to be no less than 20 degrees in loft and don't exceed 40 inches in length.

[oikos1]

They would play a putt putt course for the same money offered at current tour events. And so would 99.9% of all other golfers.

[Lincoln_Arcadia]

Exactly, RoG has been limiting what the equipment can do for more than a couple decades now.

30 years might have seen a few percent at most?

Forgiveness is also not a factor for pros.

Too many “Roll Backers” are simply projecting their terrible playing to the professionals. That’s just wrong. Haha!

[oikos1]

It is interesting how many of the roll it backers are terrified of growing the rough and tightening fairways. I've never heard so many excuses as to why not to do it even though it is the standard for golf's ruling body and the U.S. Open.

[klebs01]

Because it doesn’t actually do anything to address the problem. The problem isn’t scoring. Growing the rough doesn’t make a more interesting or compelling game. It doesn’t reduce the land and inputs needed to take care of the course. It doesn’t improve pace of play. It doesn’t reduce the safety issues associated with the ball traveling as far offline as it does now.