MORAD teachers, stack n tilt, tales, spats...lineage etc.

[Tugu]

As a person who's very interested in certain martial arts such as Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu where there are endless recounting of lineage, tales of great feats, fights, associations and updates of status quo, it occurred to me the whole MORAD story has a similar feel.

 

In Europe there's Matt Belsham and Robert Rock who still openly champion Mac Ogradys life work. I can't even tell who does this in the US. Is Mac all on his lonesome self?

 

Is stack n tilt but one pattern for a single particular flight? The fact that this is even a possibility smacks of Kung fu pulp fiction where a mythical beings renegade students have taken part of the ultimate truth the master has discovered whilst in solitude and bastardized it for personal gain.

 

I think you all know where I'm heading with this post. Let's celebrate this magnificent tale of ingenuity, individualism and daring do by recounting the tales, thoughts, positives/negatives, who is what in the tale, winners/losers etc.

 

Sadly there are but a couple of Gary McCord featured video for a man and his movement that has seemingly had a profound effect on golf instruction.

[mikpga]

Mac is the Man

[BMC]

Love Rock's swing. Many ways to swing a club with good results. O'Grady's Morad swing is one of them, but not many success stories on Tours. Rock's is close to S & T.

[RichieHunt]

Mac has schools. Last I checked, a 3-day school costs $2,500 and a 7-day school costs $3,500. You'll work each day..from sun up to sun down. People can say what they want about Mac, but they can't say he doesn't work his tail off to give you the information you want and need at these schools.

 

IMO, the schools are designed mostly for instructors. He has had some Tour players join. But, the schools are mostly for instructors trying to learn MORAD and eventually teach it to their students. Lots of instructors have gone to these schools or been heavily influence by them.

 

S&T comes from Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer. Both worked under Mac. Essentially, they took MORAD's CF high draw, hitting window 8-9 pattern and made their instructional philosophy out of that.

 

Rock and Bellsham both went to MORAD school(s). IIRC, Rock has experimented with more of Mackenzie/Kwon biomechanical philosophies to his golf swing. But, most of his swing is based in MORAD.

 

But, other teachers like Dana Dahlquist, Grant Waite, Chris Como, Jeff Smith, Joe Mayo, etc.. have all gone to MORAD schools.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

[PutterKilledTheDream]

Once my buddy was caddying for Chris Riley’s brother in the Long Beach Open and was paired with Mac. He rolls up on a bike with some asain chick talking about the moon and lunar cycles....

[mikpga]

Are you sure Andy and Mike are modeling CF? I’d suggest it’s more CP...

[iteachgolf]

> @mikpga said:

> Are you sure Andy and Mike are modeling CF? I’d suggest it’s more CP...

 

Definitely not CP

[oz dee cee]

I love this stuff... more more more!!! (Even if my head spins)

 

Saw Macs swing on IG the other day. Man, I could almost say it’s the best move in golf. Crazy sweet to watch.

[RichieHunt]

> @mikpga said:

> Are you sure Andy and Mike are modeling CF? I’d suggest it’s more CP...

 

Not even close to CP.

 

 

 

RH

[mikpga]

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding CP then?

[dcrocketman]

CF path is inside out to the right

[mikpga]

I didn’t think CP and CF were defined by path?

[Tugu]

**S&T comes from Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer. Both worked under Mac. Essentially, they took MORAD's CF high draw, hitting window 8-9 pattern and made their instructional philosophy out of that.**

 

RH

 

Any chance you would consider expanding on the above? Seems like there was quite the brouhaha over stack and tilt, both between the traditionalists v SnT, Mac v SnT, SnT ppl amongst themselves.

What does window 8-9 pattern even mean?

Are guys like Grant Waite still practicing SnT?

Seems like SnT themselves have dropped the weight on left foot at top of swing that seemed to drive everyone nuts. Similarly they seem now to adhere to modern ideas of hitting up with driver to maximize distance.

Still, seems a lot of their stuff have become widely accepted into popular teaching by guys like Gangkas, Leadbetter A swing etc.

 

Is SnT still a thing? Or is something that was only ever a component of Morad destined to be an insufficient solution to the questions asked of golfers?

 

 

 

[mikpga]

Stack and Tilt is a system...

[RichieHunt]

> @Tugu said:

> **S&T comes from Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer. Both worked under Mac. Essentially, they took MORAD's CF high draw, hitting window 8-9 pattern and made their instructional philosophy out of that.**

>

> RH

>

> Any chance you would consider expanding on the above? Seems like there was quite the brouhaha over stack and tilt, both between the traditionalists v SnT, Mac v SnT, SnT ppl amongst themselves.

> What does window 8-9 pattern even mean?

> Are guys like Grant Waite still practicing SnT?

> Seems like SnT themselves have dropped the weight on left foot at top of swing that seemed to drive everyone nuts. Similarly they seem now to adhere to modern ideas of hitting up with driver to maximize distance.

> Still, seems a lot of their stuff have become widely accepted into popular teaching by guys like Gangkas, Leadbetter A swing etc.

>

> Is SnT still a thing? Or is something that was only ever a component of Morad destined to be an insufficient solution to the questions asked of golfers?

>

>

>

 

CF vs. CP doesn't have anything to do with path. For instance, when I could go CP (I don't try to do it anymore), my stock shot was a slight push-draw. I could also hit window 8 fairly often. And I could go CF and hit fades. I have always hit the ball on the high side, so hitting low CF shots was difficult for me to do. But, I know others that could go low CF. Now, hitting windows 9 or 10 with CP...I couldn't do. But CP vs. CF has nothing to do with path.

 

Anyway, Mac came up with MORAD in the early 90's. Contrary to what some teachers are determined to believe...Mac has spent a lot of money to pay for actual scientists to research the golf swing for him while he tests out their conclusions. I have talked to a few of these researchers and they are all well credentialed, legitimate scientists.

 

What most people don't get about MORAD...and it even surprises me when former MORAD students don't seem to get it...is that MORAD is focused on the neurobiology and the central nervous system of the golf swing. It's scientific discipline is NOT biomechanics or anatomical science. I have no problem with biomechanics or anatomical studies of the golf swing. There is a lot of biomechanics in my belief system of the swing as well as the anatomical science, that my friend and former instructor, Kelvin Miyahira, studied intensively. As well as my friend, Jeff Haas.

 

And that's where you usually see the conflict between the critics of Mac. They don't understand that they are looking at the swing from a different perspective...usually biomechanics. Whereas MORAD is viewing the golf swing with neurobiology (which includes the CNS). So what MORAD is biased towards may conflict with biomechanics and vice versa.

 

Plummer & Bennett both studied MORAD under Mac. Eventually, they created S&T which is really MORAD's high draw CF pattern. If they want to hit a cut, they use the same pattern, alter the address conditions and hit what they call a 'push fade.'

 

S&T is still a 'thing.' In fact, most of GolfTec's principles come from S&T as the director of GolfTec is Nick Clearwater, a S&T instructor.

 

Grant Waite was affiliated with S&T, now he is more principled in Dr. Kwon and Dr. MacKenzie biomechanics. He still utilizes things he learned from MORAD and my guess is that he probably uses things he learned from S&T.

 

Gankas (my current teacher) has studied MORAD, S&T, Miyahira, etc. from afar and conversing with those teachers. He also has done his own research using things like GEARS, Swing Catalyst, etc. Chris Como is a friend of George's and Chris used to teach at GG's current facility at Westlake Village. So GG converses with Chris Como frequently on the science of the golf swing.

 

To S&T's credit, their proposed backswing philosophies have merit. In fact, put them on a Swing Catalyst....while it may look different...the CoP would be towards their back foot at the top of the swing.

 

In the end, there's countless ways to do it. You're best off finding a teacher that can make what they preach work for you. And usualyl those are the teachers that have a great success rate with their students.

 

 

 

 

RH

[Tugu]

> @RichieHunt said:

> > @Tugu said:

> > **S&T comes from Mike Bennett and Andy Plummer. Both worked under Mac. Essentially, they took MORAD's CF high draw, hitting window 8-9 pattern and made their instructional philosophy out of that.**

> >

> > RH

> >

> > Any chance you would consider expanding on the above? Seems like there was quite the brouhaha over stack and tilt, both between the traditionalists v SnT, Mac v SnT, SnT ppl amongst themselves.

> > What does window 8-9 pattern even mean?

> > Are guys like Grant Waite still practicing SnT?

> > Seems like SnT themselves have dropped the weight on left foot at top of swing that seemed to drive everyone nuts. Similarly they seem now to adhere to modern ideas of hitting up with driver to maximize distance.

> > Still, seems a lot of their stuff have become widely accepted into popular teaching by guys like Gangkas, Leadbetter A swing etc.

> >

> > Is SnT still a thing? Or is something that was only ever a component of Morad destined to be an insufficient solution to the questions asked of golfers?

> >

> >

> >

>

> CF vs. CP doesn't have anything to do with path. For instance, when I could go CP (I don't try to do it anymore), my stock shot was a slight push-draw. I could also hit window 8 fairly often. And I could go CF and hit fades. I have always hit the ball on the high side, so hitting low CF shots was difficult for me to do. But, I know others that could go low CF. Now, hitting windows 9 or 10 with CP...I couldn't do. But CP vs. CF has nothing to do with path.

>

> Anyway, Mac came up with MORAD in the early 90's. Contrary to what some teachers are determined to believe...Mac has spent a lot of money to pay for actual scientists to research the golf swing for him while he tests out their conclusions. I have talked to a few of these researchers and they are all well credentialed, legitimate scientists.

>

> What most people don't get about MORAD...and it even surprises me when former MORAD students don't seem to get it...is that MORAD is focused on the neurobiology and the central nervous system of the golf swing. It's scientific discipline is NOT biomechanics or anatomical science. I have no problem with biomechanics or anatomical studies of the golf swing. There is a lot of biomechanics in my belief system of the swing as well as the anatomical science, that my friend and former instructor, Kelvin Miyahira, studied intensively. As well as my friend, Jeff Haas.

>

> And that's where you usually see the conflict between the critics of Mac. They don't understand that they are looking at the swing from a different perspective...usually biomechanics. Whereas MORAD is viewing the golf swing with neurobiology (which includes the CNS). So what MORAD is biased towards may conflict with biomechanics and vice versa.

>

> Plummer & Bennett both studied MORAD under Mac. Eventually, they created S&T which is really MORAD's high draw CF pattern. If they want to hit a cut, they use the same pattern, alter the address conditions and hit what they call a 'push fade.'

>

> S&T is still a 'thing.' In fact, most of GolfTec's principles come from S&T as the director of GolfTec is Nick Clearwater, a S&T instructor.

>

> Grant Waite was affiliated with S&T, now he is more principled in Dr. Kwon and Dr. MacKenzie biomechanics. He still utilizes things he learned from MORAD and my guess is that he probably uses things he learned from S&T.

>

> Gankas (my current teacher) has studied MORAD, S&T, Miyahira, etc. from afar and conversing with those teachers. He also has done his own research using things like GEARS, Swing Catalyst, etc. Chris Como is a friend of George's and Chris used to teach at GG's current facility at Westlake Village. So GG converses with Chris Como frequently on the science of the golf swing.

>

> To S&T's credit, their proposed backswing philosophies have merit. In fact, put them on a Swing Catalyst....while it may look different...the CoP would be towards their back foot at the top of the swing.

>

> In the end, there's countless ways to do it. You're best off finding a teacher that can make what they preach work for you. And usualyl those are the teachers that have a great success rate with their students.

>

>

>

>

> RH

 

Rather than just press "like", I'd like to just take a moment to personally and publicly thank you, Mr Richie Hunt. You embody the sharing spirit that is the best part of the World Wide Web for me. Yeah I just referenced WWW! You could have just made a one line comment or just ignored me.

 

My partial motive for the post is to find an USA based instructor for my boy of 15 (as of yesterday) who will soon be returning from Asia inorder to study and compete. You have helped me clarify my own thoughts greatly, I was already leaning towards GG as I see a lot of the various things I like about SnT, Morad, TGM in his teachings. Plus I think my boy would respond well to his manner after years of the strict/regimented structure here in Asia, so I thank you again.

 

Finally I do love the passion and drama that surrounds the whole affair. As a person who was instructed by a TGM teacher teaching a hitting pattern back in the day and going through all the crazy criticisms as a teenager, all of this is of personal interest to me.

 

Thanks again.

 

[scopek]

Great post. Question for you: When you say that Mac focuses on the neurobiology of the golf swing, can you define that?

[Krt22]

What release pattern would you classify GGs?

[RichieHunt]

Mac's teachings deal with mechanics that help optimize the golfer's central nervous system. Things like the spine, inner ear fluid for balance, the eyes and all of the things the research that Mac and the researchers have conducted to show how the central nervous system of the golfer works best. That's why he deals in things like not making a big move off the ball, neck tilts, right lateral bend, etc. All to get parts of the central nervous system in the right 'position' or movements to provide better performance.

 

 

 

RH

[RichieHunt]

He really doesn't have one. It's golfer dependent. I've seen students of his underflip, roll and drive-hold.

 

 

 

RH

[dcrocketman]

CP and CF not defined by path?

Interesting take as the above is Mac’s own hand writing ?

[mikpga]

Just a side note to this...

Andy's first influence was Mr. Tomasillo...

 

[mah99]

"inner ear fluid for balance" I love it

[David C]

Baseline (horizontal swing plane) and path are not synonymous although they may match. That diagram shows different paths on the same baseline. His note at the top even says ‘no baseline shifts’. It also says that CP has no path changes, it’s ‘online’, a path on the baseline, throughout.

Also looks like a TGM illusions and baseline tracing mat. I would interpret it as a visual aid to trace for the golfer - for a practical application.

[David C]

How else do you think you balance?

[Guest]

What is so missing about everyone arguing is the true facts. Mac took the golf machine book and applied it to the human body. His information was secretly exposed to other teachers. Andy and Mike took it public with their easier understanding and the evolution of the golf swing has went from several teachers who studied under Andy Plummer and did the same thing he did with Mac and put their own twist on the same information and made it public. All the teachers are basically teaching the same thing we knew about 20 years ago, thanks to modern technology, it just took so long to understand it’s correct. The sad part is you have prime time commentators that still don’t get it, Brendon Chamberley or how ever you spell his name giving false information and unfortunately that’s what America hears. I would love to see him talk about the golf swing with Andy or Nick Clearwater and many others and it would be embarrassing

[Jackhammer993]

I was managing a grocery store and checking out customers when who pops into my line-Mac. He pay with a check with the Phillip M name on it and I tell him I recognized him. I tell him I watched him play at The US Open at Olympic and that opens up a can of worms. He talks to me for over an hour on every subject under the sun. Tells me I should come meet him out at Cinnabar Hills and takes off. Comes back 5 minutes later, gives me some more advice and than walks out into the sunset never to be seen again.