How to flick your wrists for a better swing

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GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing LesseeMembers  1875WRX Points: 228Posts: 1,875 Platinum Tees
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  • airjammerairjammer Members  1325WRX Points: 322Handicap: 4.2Posts: 1,325 Platinum Tees
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    looks like he’s describing the snap part of the impact snap device

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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members  1875WRX Points: 228Posts: 1,875 Platinum Tees
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    Is is flicking the wrists or turning over the trail forearm?

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  • MPStratMPStrat Members  1142WRX Points: 147Posts: 1,142 Platinum Tees
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    I'm not a fan of this.

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  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & BurghMembers  4114WRX Points: 712Posts: 4,114 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Mar 30, 2020 1:35pm #6

    Manzella and Jacobs believe there is positive alpha through impact. This is counter to most everything that has been measured. Nesbit article did see some positive alpha but only in higher handicap players in one of his studies. This stuff was termed the alpha wars. My take - they believe you must intentionally flick your wrists to get positive alpha? Regardless the slowing of the hands in conjunction with the speed up of the club head gets this flick moving in swings as cheetham reported in his dissertation as lead wrist extending thru impact. I’m in the camp that any intentionally wrist action thru impact is a disaster waiting to happen.

    that photos sequence is going to destroy some swings. Btw in the short game this rapid overtaking of the club head via wrist action is much desired but we are talking short precision shot here pretty much no longer than 30 yards ( and especially if you want to hit it higher). Frequently termed activating the bounce

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    Enjoy every sandwich.

  • FuscinatorFuscinator Members  457WRX Points: 271Posts: 457 Greens
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    I was hoping this video would be a little more illuminating...oh, well. https://youtu.be/rkrwV5rsei0

    I wonder if Manzella even saw those pictures accompanying the article. They were taken by a golf photographer who describes himself as a "terrible golfer" in his Twitter profile.

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  • juststevejuststeve Members  5184WRX Points: 546Posts: 5,184 Titanium Tees
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    Mike Malaska has some similar thoughts.

    Steve

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  • oikos1oikos1 Members  2782WRX Points: 558Posts: 2,782 Titanium Tees
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    Photo #4 looks like a massive flip. Yuck.

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  • glkglk send it in jerome Kodak, Tn/Chucktown, Sc via Chicago & BurghMembers  4114WRX Points: 712Posts: 4,114 Titanium Tees
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    t the bottom of the article there is a short video of iteach explaining the stick drill.

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    Enjoy every sandwich.

  • ZitlowZitlow Members  603WRX Points: 207Posts: 603 Golden Tee
    Joined:  edited Mar 30, 2020 2:44pm #11

    No flick but flow. The club head flows through impact like water coming out of a garden hose. Swoooosh

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  • Man_O_WarMan_O_War Members  3631WRX Points: 608Posts: 3,631 Titanium Tees
    Joined:  edited Mar 30, 2020 3:02pm #12

    picture 2 is where the ball is struck.. that's perfect.....there is no flipping there..hands ahead of shaft.. after that..i don't care

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  • FuscinatorFuscinator Members  457WRX Points: 271Posts: 457 Greens
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    This is a much older video comparing what Manzella calls a 'hit' vs. what he calls a 'swing'. Most of us would probably find what he's calling a 'swing', in this video, a little more acceptable than what he appears to be describing as illustrated in the article we're discussing. https://youtu.be/CF7hoY3-rQA

    I don't know if the 'flick' is something new he has adopted that resembles an underflip, or if it's just another name for the 'swing' release he demonstrates in this video.

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  • MPStratMPStrat Members  1142WRX Points: 147Posts: 1,142 Platinum Tees
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    Most teachers with ideas I trust believe the lead wrist is thrown toward extension as the lead shoulder pops up. Most amateurs pop up early and do exactly what you see in the frames shown in the article. It seems like Manzella and Jacobs talk about the hands couple as if good golfers are consciously manipulating the club with their hands the entire swing.

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3882WRX Points: 850Handicap: 9Posts: 3,882 Titanium Tees
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    I'm working on getting rid of this. Never sought this, but it happens and don't recommend it at all.

    Getting hands in proper position involves getting more rotation of shaft earlier and positioning hands in a more knuckles down disposition. Doing that also involves rest of body doing better things too. So it's multi-faceted.

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  • GolfbeatGolfbeat Swing Lessee Members  1875WRX Points: 228Posts: 1,875 Platinum Tees
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    To me it seems to be the exact opposite of what everyone else is teaching including the teachings with the Planemate. Is this not the "timing element" of the release that other teachers want you to get rid of?

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  • ScratchyDawgScratchyDawg Members  378WRX Points: 106Posts: 378 Greens
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    Seems like you'd have to have impeccable timing to pull this off. Otherwise, you're going to be spraying it left and right.

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    "Give up control to gain control" - George Knudson
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  • FireballerFireballer Members  499WRX Points: 122Posts: 499 Greens
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    I didnt read the article, but to me this is an intent for someone who needs to speed up trail arm. Isnt the idea that a proper pivot, coupled with this intent, actually prevent the flip from occurring?

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3882WRX Points: 850Handicap: 9Posts: 3,882 Titanium Tees
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    Agree, think it's incredibly short sighted and a fast track to rabbit hole of misery. Getting the hands 'right' involves getting rest of body better. That cannot be taught in a flippant golf tip.

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  • Soloman1Soloman1 Members  2809WRX Points: 733Posts: 2,809 Titanium Tees
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    Oh my . . .

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    I'm quitting at 6.022 x 10^23 posts.
    Avogadro would be proud.
  • torbilltorbill Members  425WRX Points: 285Posts: 425 Greens
    Joined:  edited Apr 1, 2020 1:20am #21

    This is the type of advice that gives golf instruction a bad name.

    I disagree with his opening statement about wrists adding meaningful clubhead speed. There is only a very small amount of power and speed to be gained from the wrists, because the muscles that control the wrists are relatively small and cannot store and release good amounts of energy. This is provably correct via mechanical analysis - forces and motions. And it is demonstrably correct from examples such as deChambeau who can hit 300+ drives all day long with purposely restricted wrist action. Anybody who wants to verify this should put a club in his/her hands, step up to the left side of a door opening (if you are a right handed player) put a ball on the other side of the door opening, place the left forearm against the left door opening (or corner of the house, or whatever) so as to eliminate all body involvement except the cocking and uncocking of the wrists, and try to hit the ball out of your shadow - what you will experience is the power contribution of wrist action in the golf swing.

    Artificially snap your wrists at the bottom of the swing? Good luck with Army golf. For anybody who wants power and control, it is to better to focus your attention on winding up the big muscles, where the real energy is stored and released, and letting the wrists naturally and passively fold and unfold. Or even trying-out the restricting of the wrists as some of the pros tend to do.

    Edit: Good grief. I just looked this name up, and see that he is a Top 100 golf instructor! I commented on stuff like this in Chamblee’s take, in a different thread. Here is living, breathing evidence. We, as students of the game, should spend less time following tips like this, just because a well known instructor is giving them, and asking ourselves, or better yet the instructor, what physical principle supports the tip being given.

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  • TTGolf77TTGolf77 Members  138WRX Points: 36Posts: 138 Fairways
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    I think if you shallow correctly, you can "flip" as much as you want.

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  • torbilltorbill Members  425WRX Points: 285Posts: 425 Greens
    Joined:  edited Apr 1, 2020 5:11am #23

    Lane,

    Okay, okay, I’ll try to get facts out of the discussion. ;-)

    We can get something out of pure wrist flip, yes. But if we flip them hard the distance will likely come in a random assortment of directions for the ball, at least for the amateur player - dispersion. (Pros can better control dispersion because their athleticism and practice provide better synchronization of the various moving parts.) Also, we have to consider that there is a contribution by the wrists if we do the same experiment as I described, but try to simulate how passive wrists would hinge and unhinge if we were swinging a club at a normal pace. If we can get, say a max of 20 yards out of a strong player like yourself cranking as hard as he can, we will likely get most of that from a more passive wrist action that goes with the flow of the overall swing. I haven’t done that particular experiment, but I’ll bet my next Social Security check on the outcome.

    There is a technical aspect of this that is very important, and I’ll use a couple of big words to describe the concept, so that interested readers can look it up and see for themselves. But stick with me here and think past the big words, and it isn’t hard to understand. The common conception is that when we hinge the wrists, to create another pivot point, this somehow creates speed or power. Not necessarily so. If it were, it would be best to swing a link chain, as a link chain has tons of pivot points. In addition, there is a very old principle of mechanics, called the principle of superposition, that helps us understand the effect of different operations of a pivot point (the wrists). It is 250 years old. It has been vetted over and over - if it didn’t work airplanes would fall out of the sky, and all sorts of horrible things would happen with machines. This principle is used everywhere in the engineering analysis of linear systems. What is tells us is that when we have two things at work, such as the arms swinging the club and at the same time the wrists hinging and unhinging, we can look at the speed of the club due to the arms swinging, independent from the speed of the club due to the wrists hinging and unhinging. We measure or compute the effect of each motion, and the motions add. They do not multiply. And there is no other magical ingredient that comes into play. This means that we can run the experiment that I described, and the difference between normal wrist action and forced wrist action is simply added to the clubspeed that the rest of the body is producing. In order for the principle to not hold, the system has to be non-linear. Since we are dealing with a simple system that is basically in rotation, the relevant accelerations are centripetal and tangential, both of which are linear. So, it seems to me that the system IS at least primarily linear, and the principle of superposition applies. I hope that this ins’t obscure to normal readers because I think it is important to good golf - flipping wrists isn’t a good idea because it adds basically nothing but complexity.

    I believe that I am standing on solid mechanical principles, above. I am going on with this long description because I have thought about wrists in golf a lot, and tried various things for myself,and I just don’t place any value in any of it. There are hopefully physicists or other mechanical engineers reading this, and I invite them to chime in and tell me if I am missing anything of significance in this description, because the role of wrists in the golf swing is something that appears to me to be terribly mis-understood, with myths and anecdotes perpetrated for as long as I have played the game - which is to say a very long time because I am old.

    My suggestion for good golf is to allow wrists to hinge naturally, in conjunction with what the big muscles are causing the body to do. Or - if it is compatible with the rest of what you do - even trying out what people like Stricker or deChambeau do, which seems to be an intentional constraining of wrist action, as it can possibly lead to improved dispersion without noticeable loss of distance. Experiment - after all there is no one, right way. But there are wrong ways, and ways that are inconsistent with mechanical principles are simply the wrong thing to spend time on, IMHO.

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  • dapdap Members  2618WRX Points: 185Posts: 2,618 Titanium Tees
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    Another feel vs real confusion. The flick or flip does happen but you don't do it purposely. The club releasing at 100 mph weighs over 100lbs and it's going to force the flick. Good players will minimise this flick. Hackers are going to be flicking a heck of a lot more so are they doing it better than the pros?

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  • ZitlowZitlow Members  603WRX Points: 207Posts: 603 Golden Tee
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    The wrists are conduits for energy. Any impedance/tension will slow the club head down.

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  • Nard_SNard_S Members  3882WRX Points: 850Handicap: 9Posts: 3,882 Titanium Tees
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    Wrist hinge is very significant to club speed. But it's angular disposition, the timing and the path approach matter a lot. You can swing at 120 mph and impact the ball at 100. Average Pro bottoms the swing 3"-4" in front of impact. You cannot get there with hand action alone or a "hold and flick" mentality or some forced intent of crossing over forearms.

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  • iteachgolfiteachgolf Members  17193WRX Points: 1,422Posts: 17,193 Titanium Tees
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    Not sure why my video is included in the link

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  • torbilltorbill Members  425WRX Points: 285Posts: 425 Greens
    Joined:  edited Apr 2, 2020 12:18am #29

    Disagree. How significant? How have you measured this? You are providing no data, no explanation, no real argument of any sort. Just another claim about the role of the wrists. It is time that we get past claims and start explaining/demonstrating/quantifiying the so-called power of the wrists. Otherwise we having nothing more than the continuing state of confusion and player frustration.

    For people who think they know better than physics and mechanical principles, think about it this way: The action of the wrists is controlled by the forearm muscles. These muscles are relatively puny in size and power. Now think about the huge muscles of the legs, the core, the shoulder girdle and even the upper arms. This is what we want to wind up and release. This is the power and control in the golf swing.

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