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"Boutique" vs Major OEM


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I've been playing for about 20 years. In that time period I have played just about every major OEM. At specific points in time, I even believed the OEM I was playing at the time was THE BEST. The interesting thing is right now, I look t my bag and the only thing OEM in my bag are my woods. I will put my Sub70 699 irons and my Sub70 wedges up against any OEM irons & wedges. I would also put my Slighter putter up against anyone's putter.

So, with absolute belief that "boutique" manufactures can make great products, can someone help me understand why it seems they trail the OEMs in drivers and woods? I am all about performance at htis point knowing a name is just a name and usually higher cost to offset their marketing costs. I just want clubs that perform for me. In all fairness, I plan to try the Sub70 fairway wood that was mentioned in Golf digest and Not allowed because of spam most wanted list. However, it has a huge mountain to climb when it comes to my Epic Flash SZ woods. Like wise, I can't really see ANY driver booting my SIM out of the bag. That being said, does anyone have a different experience and actually game a "boutique" Driver and or fairway woods?

Driver - Ping G430 9.0*  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 60 stiff 
3W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

7W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

4 Hybrid - Ping G425 AD DI 95S
Irons - Ping i525 Black dot Project x IO S
Wedges -Vokey Wedgeworks SM9 54* & 58* Modus 115 S
Putter - Lajosi PTriple Protoype

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Genuinely good point.

It's like why we buy JDM eg

Yonex Ezone 420...and the

famed J33 Bridgestone driver from long ago! T.E.E is another one..always a surprise there.With your wood/driver if your sorted that's fine!You don't have to bag an exotic club to hit fairways.

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2020 18 July mid winterNZ
Ping Rapture 2006 10.5
Nike VrS 3wood
Callaway Razr Edge5 wood

MP100=33 9876 5/mp63
54     RTX2
60     RTX2
ProPlatinum NewportTwo
2002 325gram +8.NewGrip
Dont hesitate to buy one!






 

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I wish I had somewhere to Demo a Bridgestone driver and woods. If they perform, they should get a shot.

Driver - Ping G430 9.0*  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 60 stiff 
3W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

7W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

4 Hybrid - Ping G425 AD DI 95S
Irons - Ping i525 Black dot Project x IO S
Wedges -Vokey Wedgeworks SM9 54* & 58* Modus 115 S
Putter - Lajosi PTriple Protoype

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I can speak to the Wishon drivers, specifically the 919 model.

In the correct loft, it's as long and forgiving as any driver out there. The one area that it is missing compared to the OEMs is the adjustable hosel.

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Ping G430 LST 10.5* : Ventus Red TR 7S

Titleist TSR2 4W : Tensei 1K Black 85-S

Mizuno CLK 19*: Ventus Blue HB-8S

Srixon ZX Utility #4: Nippon Modus3 125-S

Wilson Staff CB 5-PW : Nippon Modus3 125-S

Cleveland Zipcore 50, 54, 58: Nippon Modus3 125-S 

Piretti Potenza 370g : Breakthrough Technology Stability Shaft - 34"

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Irons, wedges, and putters don't change much, and for all the technology OEMs try to pack in there, it's more about how they look and feel. So boutique can fit in nicely here.

Drivers/FW on the other hand definitely benefit from the millions of dollars in R&D and it is probably really hard to compete. You can argue that COR is maxed out, but the tiny changes in launch conditions, spin rates, and forgiveness add up.

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G400 LST 8.5* Ventus Blue 6x 🐐 
UW 17* Smoke 70s

Fli-Hi 19* Smoke 80s
223 4-G KBS Tour 120s
RTX ZC 56.12 / 60.09 ff DG Spinner

FTP SM1 0* loft / 400g / SS GT 1.0 

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You have a SIM driver. By simple calendar facts that club booted a driver out of your bag in the last 3-4 months. Why, and what was it up against?

 

I think when people make their shortlist of what they are going to test, they gravitate to what they have heard about. I hear about the SIM and I hear about the Maverik. I occasionally hear about Titleist, Ping, and Cobra. What I do not hear about are Mizuno, Wilson, ClevelandSrixon, and they aren't even boutique. So it's a self-fulfilling prophecy in a way: No one has a Hogan GS53 driver so you don't see them in people's bags. One guy has one and loves it and tries to convince you its as good as the other guys, but you have to go out and learn about it and find one to hit, and try to evaluate it while ignoring the stigma of it being a non-mainstream club. Vs a club that has reviews on every golf magazine, hundreds of wrxers singing its praises in release threads, etc. It's a tough hole to climb out of.

With the big OEMs you go in thinking "will this club work better than mine" but with boutique stuff you wonder "will this club work at all?"

 

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The large OEM's spend the majority of their R&D on drivers. Largely because driver is the club that is replaced most often in golfer's bags. Along side the extra R&D spending, major OEMs also spend a majority of their marketing budget on drivers as well.

To protect this extra investment in drivers, the large OEM's file and enforce a lot of Patents. And because there is a larger patent mine field to avoid with driver design, boutique club makers are forced to steer clear of anything that could possibly bring litigation, because the cost of any litigation at all could be the difference in them keeping their doors open, or closing down for good.

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To JamesTHF

We are all looking for a club that will be an ICON and that will be the Equiliser in the Fairway.Im happy to drive out of town and pickup a set of Redlines that I played for two years.Just bought a Ping Rapture 10.5 because it will work and be close to the New Stuff.Had a 917 driver 15 months ago good but not a Rapture!! Nothing in my bag is purchased by Pier Pressure....a set of Icons within 2 years may happen...I just rebuilt a 7 wood 904F....will be a month before I can use it!!

As always as clubs get older I buy rebuild restore them and buy a New Current model head cover so folks think I'm a Style Conscious Guy !!!

BF1S3WDBBRQC.jpg

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2020 18 July mid winterNZ
Ping Rapture 2006 10.5
Nike VrS 3wood
Callaway Razr Edge5 wood

MP100=33 9876 5/mp63
54     RTX2
60     RTX2
ProPlatinum NewportTwo
2002 325gram +8.NewGrip
Dont hesitate to buy one!






 

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One reason why I and most other lefties don't go boutique is options. At least with OEM's for drivers and most woods we get the most of what is released, some versions and loft we don't get but better than nothing.

I'm not against boutique, I love my putters, I love the look of a lot of wedges, I would absolutely love a set of Japanese forged CB irons one day. Just woods I'll stick to OEM options.

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Lefty - WITB Thread

Driver: 10° Cobra LTDxLS | AD-IZ 6X 

3W: 15° Callaway Paradym X | AD-IZ 7X

3H: 19° Ping G410 | Tensei CK Pro Orange 90TX

Irons: PXG 0311P 4-6 | 0317CB 7-PW | DG 120 X100

Wedges: SM9 50° - 54° - 58° 

Putter(s): Ping PLD Anser 4K | CMD Gauge R | and more. 

Ball: TP5X 2024

Bag: Ghost Katana

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I’m also a Sub 70 customer and plan on buying from them again once the stay at home order is over. The service I’ve gotten from them exceeds anything I could of hoped for and the quality does stand up any of the OEMs. The owner Jason has gone out of his way to make sure my set works for me.

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Driver- Tour Edge EXS 220

4W- Sub 70 949X

4H- Sub 70 949X

Utility- Sub 70 699U 21 degree

Irons- Sub 70 749 5-PW

Wedges - Sub 70 286 50+54 degree

                 Tour Edge 1 out 58 degree

Putter- Cleveland Huntington Beach #11

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great point with the money spent on R&D.

Driver - Ping G430 9.0*  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 60 stiff 
3W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

7W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

4 Hybrid - Ping G425 AD DI 95S
Irons - Ping i525 Black dot Project x IO S
Wedges -Vokey Wedgeworks SM9 54* & 58* Modus 115 S
Putter - Lajosi PTriple Protoype

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All valid points. I will say that I get fitted for a new driver every 2 years (i don't believe the tech changes that much from year to year). In my case, the SIM beat out my trusty M3. The m5 was not any better than my M3, so I wasn't even tempted to change. When I go in to a fitting, I try just about every thing new. I let the fitter put it in my hands and I hit it. In this case (and to your point) I hit the Mavrik SZ and standard, Ping 410 LST, Epic Flash SZ, Both Cobras, the Srixon 5 series and the New Cleveland. I wanted to try the Mizuno but it wasn't available. The most out of the box club I tried was the Srixon and it wasnt that out of the box to me because I play the ZStar XV. ButI get your point about availability 100%.

As for the reputation, it really isn't a concern for me. I'm the ONLY person i personally know who plays the Srixon ball. I'm also the only person i know playing "boutique" irons. I am truly looking for performance. Thanks to the demo program, I am going to try the Sub70 fairway woods. But I digress...you made a bunch of valid points.

Driver - Ping G430 9.0*  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 60 stiff 
3W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

7W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

4 Hybrid - Ping G425 AD DI 95S
Irons - Ping i525 Black dot Project x IO S
Wedges -Vokey Wedgeworks SM9 54* & 58* Modus 115 S
Putter - Lajosi PTriple Protoype

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great point. Never thought about that.

Driver - Ping G430 9.0*  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 60 stiff 
3W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

7W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

4 Hybrid - Ping G425 AD DI 95S
Irons - Ping i525 Black dot Project x IO S
Wedges -Vokey Wedgeworks SM9 54* & 58* Modus 115 S
Putter - Lajosi PTriple Protoype

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Come to Finland. Of lost golf balls on our course Zstar s the solid #2 after the prov for 'premium' ball. I find way more of them than Chromesofts, TP5s, or Tour B's.

I actually like this thread because a lot different angles were thrown at the question and perspectives I wasn't considering. Pity your fitter didn't have Mizuno (or Wilson for that matter).

I do think that making the effort to try boutique can pay off though. I recently put a TEE hybrid into play that is unbelievable. But I had to catch lightning in a bottle if the right CL ad at the right time at a price where I didn't care if it flopped... That's what the boutiques are up against.

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I love boutique because it’s special. The more I tweak Drivers and fairways the more I realize it’s about the shaft...which also has boutique as a rising tiger. I think we are coming to a new era where the philosophy might be get a decent head you like for two years and spend the money finding the shaft. Pipe dream?...standard adapters.

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But do they add up? Like on course and in play? Not in a vacuum that seemingly NEVER compares impact location from shot to shot. I'm legitimately asking because driving distance for the best players in the world doesn't change meaningfully from year to year or even every few years. They all go up and down a yard or two every so often. This has been the case for a very very long time. Sure more guys are hitting it longer - to the ire of the R&A and USGA but that's more likely about fitness, training, and club fitting/optimization.

Woods are a funny thing. My thinking is that pros stick with what they know and more importantly TRUST. Brand loyalty and fitters and clubmakers out on tour carry a lot of clout among players and I don't think there's anything remotely wrong with that. Take your local club champion and put the latest Alpha Vx or CT518 from Fourteen in his hands and let him compare to the latest Titleist, Callaway, TM, Ping, or whatever he plays and he'll probably hit them all within 5-10 yards of each other. But the TRUST that he has in the large OEM brand is real and it's going to take more than 5 yards to knock it out of his bag.

Our club champ plays off of a +1.5 index and is using the 815 Alpha. It's over 5 years old. Why change when you hit it 300 down the middle and trust it?

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I play the Sub70 Pro 3 wood which replaced an older model Nike, great club would definitely recommend Demoing. When shopping a new wood, a big selling point for me was the price for a new club compared to a major OEM. I think I was also looking for a specific slot for my club to fit in; I didn't need the longest 3 wood out there, I needed something that I liked the feel of and could flight the way I wanted to (high and low).

So when I ordered a demo to try out I honestly just needed to make sure that it fit the two needs above. Can I say that it's longer than TM/Cally? Probably not, but again it filled the role that a 3-wood plays in my bag perfectly.

Back to OP's point, I don't know if I'd necessarily take the same path on Driver, where the main idea for me is distance, and where technology may/may not play a bigger part in achieving that. I think it'd be hard (or impossible) to accurately test a boutique driver before actually purchasing, whereas you can test OEM drivers pretty much anywhere to a certain validity.

I plan on trying their irons once COVID situation is over...feel kind of the same way as the woods in that as long as they feel good and I can flight them right I could care less if I'm hitting them 3.5 yards shorter. The black irons are also pretty slick looking.

Been Z-star squad since college...thinking about switching to tour yellow but my friends might not let me play with them anymore with that combo.

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I don't have a single club from one of the big guns in the bag. I tend to like rooting for the little guy, so while I don't have a full bag of 'boutigue' its full of smaller brands or boutique brands.

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Callaway Rogue SubZero 9* 

TEE CBX 119 4wd 16.5*

Wilson Staff FG Tour F5 3h 19*

Wilson Staff C300 Forged 4i

Wilson Staff FG Tour M3 5-GW

Scratch 56* DS

Toulon Atlanta

 

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I am going to put the Tour yellow in play as soon as they can get them back on shelves. I have not seen them since the 2020 update to the Z Star XV.

As for the Sub70 pro 3 wood. All I hear is great things about it. When I was there for my fitting Jason had just received some heads designated for Mark Calcavechia that were 3* open. I should have hit the woods when i was there but I barely had time for my iron fitting. The irons and wedges are money. My 699s kicked the TM P790 to the curb and I recently added the wedges to replace my RTX4s.

Driver - Ping G430 9.0*  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 60 stiff 
3W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

7W - Ping G425 Max  Mitsubishi Diamana ZF Series 70 stiff 

4 Hybrid - Ping G425 AD DI 95S
Irons - Ping i525 Black dot Project x IO S
Wedges -Vokey Wedgeworks SM9 54* & 58* Modus 115 S
Putter - Lajosi PTriple Protoype

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I think you mean a GSS 3---- The last of the true Hogan metal woods before the sale to Callaway. GSS means Game Shaping System-- I have my original one that I bought new and was only my 3rd metal driver--- That thing still hits good even though the Aldila stiff shaft is a little much for my back to handle these days. I also have quite a few GSS hybrids and fairways I salvaged off the junk pile over the years

Driver--- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha--- Speeder 565 R flex

5W  --- TM V Steel Fubuki 60r

7W --- TM V Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex

9W--- TM V Steel Stock V Steel R flex shaft

Irons 5 thru PW TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R F

SW Callaway PM Grind 56* Modified Grind KBS Tour Wedge

LW Vokey SM5 L Grind 58* 04 bounce Stock Vokey Shaft

Putter Macgregor Bobby Grace Mark 4 V-Foil Broomstick

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@BIG STU ,
Although I remember the model you are referring to, the latest iteration of attempted Hogan resurrection did have GS53 named metals that were actually pretty nice- have a friend that likes the 3 wood quite a bit.

Titleist TSR2 10* (d4 surefit) Fujikura Motore Speeder 7.2s
Titleist 904f 17* YS7+s
Titleist 962b 3-pw s300
Cleveland zipcore tour rack custom 52* s400
Cleveland zipcore tour rack custom 58* s400
Ping Zing2 BeCu

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i have found that, (at least in blades/irons) there hasn’t been anything that had performed better than my 15 year old MP-67’s that I just sold...... for me anyways. The only reason I’m looking for a new set now, is that I’ve grown older, play less, and the X100 shafts are a bit much for me now. It seems like the blades are aging better than me. If I were playing at my former level and ability, I would not think of making a change, and if I were to buy another set of sticks (if I still had my former selfs game) I’d save a bit of money, and buy a like new set from 1999-2010.

Id probably buy a “boutique” set, being the sub70 699 pro, if they had it in a satin or chrome finish, but PVD Black ?‍♂️ Not for nothing, it can’t be worse than some of the Taylormade’s black finish wear..... ? I’m now looking at players distance irons, and the Sub70 699 pro seems like something I’d like, but the black is a turn off for me. I’ve hit some big name brands, HMB’s P790’s and now I’m looking at a 716 or 718 T-Mb set gently used for the price of the boutique, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.For the money and quality of iron, not to mention picking my desired shaft and grip, I would have definitely said yes to the 699 pro, if it wasn’t PVD black. Maybe I wait a year and play my back up set of 1970???Burke Tommy Armor Royal Scot with true temper featherlite “stiff shafts”

I’d be interested to see the 699 pro black finish in a year. I read somewhere that they had a finish called QDQ, but went on the Sub70 website and it said PVD so ?..... will it wear like a Taylormade P790 black ........ Cobra King Tec........PXG dark....... or something else entirely ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

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Just added the first of what I'm hoping is many sub70 clubs to my bag (I'm eyeing the combo set... maybe new wedges down the road...). More than anything, I like to support smaller companies., especially right now.

 

On the driver front, I think the gap is closing on performance, but "driver technology" is just expensive... adjustable hosels, to movable weights and overall design... it's hard for the smaller brands to compete. They also have to convince people to buy a driver without hitting it, which I think is it's own unique challenge.

I got a Hogan driver to review here, and did not like any of the stock shafts they offered... I went and reshafted it and still didn't get along with the club... I might revisit it this season and see if I like it more, but I wasn't super impressed with it overall... I'd be hesitant to pull the trigger on a DTC driver... No issue with doing it for irons, for whatever reason.

As of  10/11/2021

9 Callaway Mavrk Sub Zero with Ventus Black 7X

13 Degree Srixon 3 wood Project X Black 6.5

19 Degree Sub70 939 Pro with Proforce V2

4 Utility Sub70 699u 22 degree Proforce V2

5-GW Srixon Zx5 with Project X 6.5

Sub70 286 54

Sub70 JB Low Bounce 58

SeeMore milled Tri-Mallet fit and built at SeeMore 

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