Looks like Congressional is getting a re-design. (Pic from above)

[jwellefson1]

The best is likely Congressional or Baltimore Country Club, Valhalla and maybe even Kinloch may also be in it. Caves Valley and RTJ are both Top 200 courses, but that's it.

Whereas a lot of the great courses up north don't deal with the nasty summers of the South, DC gets some bad winters (this year was very light though). Conditions just don't get too firm and fast in the DC Area, it's too humid in the summers. The courses nearly everywhere else I've been are better. Pennsylvania, New York, North Carolina, California, and the UK&I have all had better conditioning than the average courses in the DC Metro Area.

[ALTSean]

Kinloch is ranked as #66 of the top 100 courses in the U.S. by Golf Digest. They also list a couple West Virginia courses in the top 100 and those courses are in a similar climate to the D.C. area:

Top 100 US Golf Courses 2019-20 - Golf Digest

 

[hollabachgt]

What is considered the transition zone? Looking at Cities/Course that exist at similar latitudes, geography, and climates as Washington DC it would seem that Philadelphia, PA (Pine Valley, Merion); Pittsburgh, PA (Oakmont), and Columbus, OH (Muirfield Village & The Golf Club) would all experience the same growing conditions.

The one factor that I'm unsure of is soil base, I'd presume that the soil base around much of the DC area is clay. Which would be at a disadvantage compared to Pine Valley and Merion. Oakmont is built on clay and is considered by many to be the finest clay course in the world and the exception that proves the rule that you need sand for a truly great course.

 

 

[jwellefson1]

West Virginia courses in the Top 100 are mostly mountain courses, Pikewood National being the best. I wouldn't consider a mountain course at the same climate as the swamps that the DC area was built up on.Yeah it is where the soil turns to clay. Philly has much less humidity in summers, as do everywhere else you listed. I can attest having lived in Pittsburgh before Northern VA. The summers here can be brutal compared to Pennsylvania as a whole. I read an article a few years ago explaining that the transition area here makes having a great course difficult, and while there are great courses in the area, what I'm saying is that none of them will likely ever compete with the blue bloods of the north or the fantastic clubs of the south. Don't get me wrong, the nicer courses in the area are good, but will likely never meet the conditioning of other locations in the US.

[hollabachgt]

How does the humidity impact the ability to build a world class course? The National Climate Data Center suggest that the relative humidity levels between Washington DC, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and Pittsburgh is very, very similar month to month. So I don't think that's the reason.

The Washington/Baltimore area may be void of a truly world class golf course, but It seems to be more unfortunate luck than anything else. Allison, Emmet, Flynn, Macdonald, Mackenzie, RTJ, Ross, Raynor, Tillinghast, Travis, and other great ODG's all built courses in the area. It may be a bit surprising among all of these projects that none of them resulted in a top 10 course today, but it's a pretty exclusive list to be ranked in the top 10. Even then Baltimore Five Farms and Congressional Blue are both extremely good courses and better than 99% of courses across the world.

[smashdn]

"What is considered the transition zone?"

 

My definition and what I have experienced (and yes I did take GC MGT and turf courses though that is not what I do) Indianapolis and south to about Huntsville (maybe farther north with new bermuda green cultivars). Ky, Tenn (save for Memphis area), Little Rock north, all MO but north of KC and maybe just a smidge of the Ozarks, Oklahoma, North Carolina save for the mountains, maybe southern Ohio, WV and VA excepting the mountains. Altitude plays a role as well hence Memphis and mountains being different.

Too far north to keep bermuda greens from winter kill and too far south to keep cool season fairways.

Most courses in transition zone have warm season fairways (bermuda and zoysia) and bent greens, though some are moving to the new bermuda strains that are more cold resistant. Because of this when you have really good greens (like now and mid fall) you have fairways coming out of or going into dormancy. When you have really good fairways, summer and early fall, your greens are soft and stressed (most places).

 

Personally I am hopeful that the new Bluemuda fairways popping up will change things significantly for transition zone courses.

[jwellefson1]

The heat/humidity is much worse in DC/Baltimore than anywhere in Pennsylvania (speaking from experience, and I've lived all over the state), and the land was originally swampland. You're right, there were some great course designers to work in the area, but the land is not conducive to great golf, and that assertion comes from friends that work in the industry. I'm looking forward to what Congo becomes, but the land is never going to yield a top ten course, possibly not even Top 50. It's hard to describe the climate in the area to someone who's not from here, but everyone who lives in the area says the same thing. The condition here is always going to be saturated, we need a drought in order to get courses firm and fast.

Trust me when I tell you this, I miss golfing up north of here. The average courses I'd play in PA were better than the "high-end" courses I'd play here, regardless of the designer.

[smashdn]

"How does the humidity impact the ability to build a world class course?"

 

It impacts how water behaves on your turf. You can mist your greens and cool them down in a dry environment through evaporation. If the air is already saturated (high humidity) your greens don't cool down and you promote disease with hot wet greens.

The worst thing (one of anyway) in the transition zone is heat and humidity and rain on bentgrass greens. High heat is manageable. Lots of rain is manageable but not ideal. Together they will really stress your greens. It is better to be hot and dry. You can add water as needed. You can't un-rain on a green and dry it out (unless you have sub-air and places I play don't have it).

 

So how does that impact design? You don't find folks willing to throw the coin at a course that only has ideal golf conditions in the shoulder seasons. Valhalla is all bent. The membership has plenty of money to keep it alive in the summer. Other private courses in and around Louisville have transitioned (no pun intended) away from cool season fairway grasses, most to zoysia. Olde Stone in Bowling Green is also flush with money and started as an all bent course but had to redo the fairways when they didn't provide good conditions. One course in BG now has bermuda greens in fact.

[Pure_putter]

Keep in mind conditioning is typically a small percentage of an overall course rating.

[jwellefson1]

Yes, but don't you think it's easier to design a better course when the condition suits it? Don't you think conditioning impacts redesigns and restorations and small changes throughout time?

[hollabachgt]

The amount of money that exist in DC area courses is more than enough for them to "throw the coin" at their courses and keep them in perfect maintenance all year round. That is clearly not the problem here.

[smashdn]

But do those people stay there? Pinehurst area was a retreat for wealthy NE business tycoons.

Nashville, arguably, does not have great courses either and there is plenty of money. Valhalla is well regarded as a course but is not spectacular from an architectural standpoint. It is not "great."

[hollabachgt]

I was really referring to the initiation cost, monthly due cost, and membership size at Courses like Congressional, Baltimore, Burning Tree, Chevy Chase, Columbia, Belle Haven, Army Navy, and any of the other super exclusive clubs around the area. There are more than a dozen clubs in the area who have no issues coming up with boatloads of cash for their maintenance budget.

There really is no comparing the wealth and longevity of DC vs. Nashville. The Nashville metro area has doubled in size in less than 30 years and is still 1/3rd the size of the DC area.

[smashdn]

You got me then. Highly ranked courses seem to happen for one of two reasons, they are old and were built by a famous ODG or they are new and were built by a famous new guy on a great property.

 

I only bring up Nashville as it is a decently large city in the transition zone and it also doesn't have what I would think of as a great course. There really isn't anything in the transition zone highly ranked is there? Pinehurst #2 if you want to include it as a transition course though it is now all bermuda IIRC. The Honors Course in ooltewah is in the top 100. I don't know what kind of grass they have though.

[Pure_putter]

Sure I agree a course plays better when the conditioning suits it, however I think the majority of magazines tend to keep their categories separated.

Review for example the GD methology and see that Congressional's conditioning score is better than #10 Fishers Island https://www.golfdigest.com/story/how-our-panel-ranks-the-courses

[TexasTurf]

I'm obviously a conditioning guy, but the rankings are more about the property, design, shot values, and politics (as well as tournament history, nostalgia, etc). Also different people are into different things. If you like firm and fast, an all bent course probably isn't for you. Play an all dormant bermuda course in a dry winter or summer to get that. If you want green and lush with really fast greens, you have to hit the north in summer or desert in winter. If you want great golf all year round, south or transition zone is great.

For year round golf, If green speed is your thing, pick bermuda greens, but they go dormant and don't roll or accept approach shots as well. If looks, consistent playability, and a true roll all year is your thing, go bent greens. If fast and firm is your long game thing, go bermuda fairways/ rough. If a consistent perfect lie and minimal dormant time is your thing, go zoysia fairways/rough.

Rankings and conditioning are connected but less than you might think. The last top 100 raters said one of our straight forward par 4's was our the best hole based on shot values, even though I think it may be the most forgettable hole on the course.

[TexasTurf]

You can build a very highly ranked course anywhere in the country. But prestige and exclusivity alone do not equal high rankings. Many of the most expensive, exclusive clubs in the country really don't have very interesting courses, but are immaculate. And many of the most highly ranked courses are great but lack in conditioning.

[lazyjc4]

I've heard from members that 10 was pushed back to being a long par 3 with the water behind it. The new tee box moved to where the old practice green was, and the green right in front of the pond. No other major changes to holes or routing from what I've heard.

[hollabachgt]

Oh interesting, that would be a rather downhill hole, I don't know the slope in that area well enough but I'd imagine they will have to regrade the land a bit to not make the green blind from the tee. It would better connect the 10th green to the 11th tee. Will this impact the tee for the 1st hole on the Gold course?

[FormerBigDaddy]

Hey guys… So for those who are interested. I was at congressional yesterday for my sons dive meet. Snuck away to look around as I was very curious to see how different the blue course is after the renovation. I actually worked there in the early 2000’s so I have a good background of the old design and blue course. I was there when 18 was still a par 3 before they made it number 10 and flipped the tees/green. 
 

First off, I barely recognized the place. They REALLY opened up the the holes and removed a ton of trees. It was not a windy day yesterday and the wind was moving flags all over. Wind will definitely come in to play in future events (especially 10 and 18). The grounds look amazing… more fescue than I remember and it looks like they did all the greens, tee boxes, bunkers, and tweaked some of the layout/sight lines. I really only got a good look at 1, 9 green, 10, 11, 15, and 18. They honestly didn’t look like the same holes. 
 

The most noticeable change off the bat is #10 (keep in mind I couldn’t see everything).  This is still a par 3 but they moved the green back to the clubhouse side of the pond where the original 18 green was (when it was par 3). They completely reshaped the land there and made it a hell of a lot better hole.  The routing to 11 tee is so much better now as well which really bugged me when they flipped the hole previously.  You can see the pic below I took from the back tee box, it sits at 150yds but there are 2 more tee boxes behind this one from gold #1 that could be used to stretch this par 3 out to around 200. Landing area is pretty small and narrow if you want to get it close with a bale out area short left. The pic below doesn’t do it justice. Just standing there yesterday I couldn’t figure out what I’d hit. It’s got to be nearly 2 clubs down hill but the wind was blowing about 2 clubs worth in the face. Hard to flight it with water and bunkering in front and scary to send it up in the air with that wind. They really made this an incredible hole!!

 

In the pic above you can also see 18 green to the right. That hole didn’t change much from where I was looking but the green looked smaller to me. To the left you can see #11 which was cleaned up and reshaped and in the distance you can see 15 green to the left of the big American flag. 
 

Below you can see #1 stretched out to 450 yds and could potentially go back a little further if needed. The angle of the tee shot from the back tee is much more demanding now. Didnt get a great shot of it but is the tee to the left. 

 

Last pic below is from the pool area where you can get a look at #11 on the left and 18 green in the far right. They really did an amazing job of making everything look natural and I think as the grounds mature some it will look even better. The new 10/11/18 area really looks like this is how it was supposed to always been. Wish I could have seen more but from what I saw it looks like a HUGE upgrade and maybe a top course in the country. I can’t say enough… looks like a new course. This was not a small tweak. Bravo… the future majors and Ryder cup will be fun to watch. Bravo!

Edited June 29, 2021 by FormerBigDaddy

[golfortennis]

So it's quite a nice place, thanks for the pics.  I would question though, why that par 3 needs to be 200 yards.  This is a case of modern architecture simply going for longer is better.  I know guys can hit it a mile, but #2 at Wentworth is 140 yards and gives guys fits, and there is a hole in Augusta, GA that isn't long and messes guys up.  Just doesn't seem like it needs length.

 

But that's just me.  It does look great though.

[mallrat]

I’m confused by all the weather and transition zone talk. Seems like there are 2 different conversations that people aren’t separating. 
 

IMO, a great course and a course with great conditions are two completely different things. But that’s just me

[smashdn]

On 4/3/2020 at 7:49 AM, jwellefson1 said:

So I'm friends with the assistant super there (no he can't get me on), they're doing a full restoration back to the original Emmet design. Andrew Green is the architect in charge, and they are doing a lot of tree removal. It is supposed to finish in April of next year, and the course shut down last September. To echo another comment, I don't think they could ever be a top 5 course in the country, and I don't believe that is their intent. The DC/Baltimore Area, as a transition climate, doesn't have the land for golf. It gets too cold in the winter and too hot in the summer to sustain a very highly rated golf course. I definitely think there's a handful of great courses in the area, Congo, BCC, Caves Valley, and RTJ are all very cool, but none of them will come close to a top 20 spot in the US in my opinion.

 

20 hours ago, mallrat said:

I’m confused by all the weather and transition zone talk. Seems like there are 2 different conversations that people aren’t separating. 
 

IMO, a great course and a course with great conditions are two completely different things. But that’s just me

 

That is why.  And imo there is some truth to it.  It is incredibly hard in the transition zone to get all cylinders of the golf course firing at the same time.  That is what holds courses back in the transition zone.  It isn't that you can't have good conditions, it is that you have a small windows where the conditions are good, which means you have to have a membership willing to pay for those small windows.  Some places that is fine though.

 

It was in response as to why it won't be a top 5 in the country.

 

Columbus, OH is one degree higher latitude than DC but they have very different climates.

Edited July 7, 2021 by smashdn

[BigManSlim]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

 

That is why.  And imo there is some truth to it.  It is incredibly hard in the transition zone to get all cylinders of the golf course firing at the same time.  That is what holds courses back in the transition zone.  It isn't that you can't have good conditions, it is that you have a small windows where the conditions are good, which means you have to have a membership willing to pay for those small windows.  Some places that is fine though.

 

It was in response as to why it won't be a top 5 in the country.

 

Columbus, OH is one degree higher latitude than DC but they have very different climates.

This is all quite true. But even from a layout perspective Congressional isn't even the best course in the state. It gets a lot of credit based on it's history of USGA events, etc.

 

The East course at BCC is a far superior layout with better green complexes, etc. Foster did the restoration at BCC as well and it is now considerably underrated IMO.

 

Both courses struggle with the super hot periods (basically now through the 2nd or 3rd week in August). It's just blazing hot and humid and doesn't cool off enough at night. From mid Sept-Late October the conditions are generally impeccable. 

 

I have not played Congressional since this restoration but it was sorely needed. I have played it in 6-8 tournaments over the last 15 years and it needed a freshening. I played it at times where it was positively soaking wet with no discernable reason why. Hopefully the tree removal will allow for more air movement and stronger turf...that's the theory anyway.

 

Pics look really good and a significant improvement.

Edited July 7, 2021 by BigManSlim

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, BigManSlim said:

From mid Sept-Late October the conditions are generally impeccable.

 

That would be a perfect time to host a PGA Championship there.

 

Same around here.  Once it starts to get around 50 at night the bent perks back up and the pock marks heal.  The zoysia and bermuda are still green but are dry.  You get wonderful running fairways and shiny, crispy rough that is playable but unpredictable and greens that are able to be dried out some and roll true.  Fall is my favorite time to golf but also my favorite time to do a lot of things outdoors.

[Kyle M]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:38 PM, golfortennis said:

So it's quite a nice place, thanks for the pics.  I would question though, why that par 3 needs to be 200 yards.  This is a case of modern architecture simply going for longer is better.  I know guys can hit it a mile, but #2 at Wentworth is 140 yards and gives guys fits, and there is a hole in Augusta, GA that isn't long and messes guys up.  Just doesn't seem like it needs length.

 

But that's just me.  It does look great though.

I love this take. We have a par 3 that plays up to 190 and I always think that at 145 it’s such a better golf hole. At 190 it’s just excessively penal at times. 

[golfortennis]

38 minutes ago, Kyle M said:

I love this take. We have a par 3 that plays up to 190 and I always think that at 145 it’s such a better golf hole. At 190 it’s just excessively penal at times. 

 

One of the best par 3s I've ever played was at my old course.  Doesn't hit 150 from the tee, there is no water, and yet, it's a tough hole.  

[James the Hogan Fan]

On 7/7/2021 at 5:27 PM, Kyle M said:

I love this take. We have a par 3 that plays up to 190 and I always think that at 145 it’s such a better golf hole. At 190 it’s just excessively penal at times. 

 

190 (for mortals) and 220-30 for pros simply means hammer a long iron/hybrid and hope it comes down in the vicinity of the green. Certainly a reasonable demand, but a rather straightforward one.

 

I'm reminded of a line from "The Great Gumball Rally":

"55 miles an hour is unsafe. It's fast enough to kill ya, but its slow enough to make ya THINK you're safe!"

 

And so is 145 yards. When you are in the range where you're thinking about quadrants of the green, of how close to the flag you can hit. I can go for the back right pin on 12 at Augusta because I've "only got a 9-iron". You get greedy and open yourself up to a world of hurt.