Mizuno Tour Proven Series: Not Sold In America?

[EmperorPenguin]

I have been curious about the Mizuno Tour Proven irons, in particular the TP-19's. Through the years I checked periodically for listings online, but every time I see them for sale outside of America, mostly in UK. Is there a reason why people don't sell them here in America?

[NRJyzr]

My impression may be incorrect, but here goes nothing...

I was under the impression the TP series MIzuno irons were not offered for sale in in the US? I'm basing that on third hand information from a long time ago, so take it for what little it's worth.

[elwhippy]

I think some of the models were similar, if not the same but were given different models. We had TP, USA and other markets had MS.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

I think this is right. Also, I think the MP naming was first used in the US. So Japan has the MS-11, which were the MP-11s in the US and the TP-11 in Europe. That said, I'm not sure irons were identical across markets. I've seen people in golf forums claim there are differences between the European TP-19s and the MS-203s, which were the Japan release, butI possess neither set, so I can't confirm this. Also, some lines were limited to one market; for example, the beautiful TP-9s were Europe only, and I think the MS-4s were US-only.

And with that said, I've seen a set of TP-9s up for auction in Japan with a completely different name. Not sure if they're otherwise identical to the TP-9s, but they do have that beautiful muscle pad.

 

[Foozle]

I live in the UK and picked up a set of MS 11's a few years ago. It caused some consternation as no one had heard of Mizuno MS here to the extent that some even suggested they were fakes or knock off's. This prompted some investigation on my part and from what I found MS were only sold in the far East market. No idea how my set found there way here but they remain very rare in the UK. However we do have TP and MP models in abundance. In my collection I now have TP9, MP14 and MP32 as well as the MS11's. Unfortunately no TP11 to compare directly with the MS11 but like No Catchy Nickname suggests, I believe they are similar but not identical. As an aside, Mizuno are renowned for the soft feel of their forgings and in my opinion the MS11'S are the softest and best feeling of the sets I have.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

You've got the TP-9s? Lovely. When I was a junior, two older lads had my club both had sets. They were good players (one got down to a 3 handicap after taking up the game about 6 months earlier. And that was with the old UK handicap system) and hit those beauties so well.

[elwhippy]

I bought a set of TP9s when I got my first decent wage. 3 to SW, R400 DG with Green Velvet grips. 3 to PW were great but the sand iron was chunky and had too much bounce. Mizuno arrived in the UK in 1982 and really hurt the likes of Hogan, Slazenger, Maxfli and Wilson. Great feel, workable and very durable for forged heads.

[Nard_S]

I own TP-2000's, they came out of UK. They are TN87 or MP29's by another name and finish. At the time Google search came up with MP, TP & MS were designations for markets served. Asian market has clubs that are standard 1/2' shorter than US, so final head weight might differ than MP to nail SW. So, reason to delineate markets might lie in build specs for a given region in an era that preceded mass adoption of bar codes and sku's and mate production to demands better.

[Foozle]

There is a tale behind my TP9's. I was actually researching my MS11's as mentioned above and so ventured onto eBay to see if there were any for sale and anything to confirm they were not fakes. I found the TP9's(1-Pw) listed at £9.99! I had never bid on eBay but had always lusted after TP9's and was boosted by my experience of hitting the MS11's and wondered if they could be even better so placed a max bid and forgot about it assuming they would go for big money. I won that auction at £12.51 - just over £20 delivered to my door!!! Almost new lamkin crosslines too! Well that was me hooked on on line shopping! Great clubs but not as soft as the MS11's. Final footnote, many sets in my collecting career later, a seller contacted me to say he had lost the sand iron for the set I had bought. I rarely use set SI's so told him not to worry but he insisted he include another SI. He sent me TP9 SI so I now have TP9 1-SI! However, I agree the SI is a bit clunky!

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

You have a 1-SW set of TP-9s for 20 quid? I think I hate you!Amazing deal, and well done on a great score.

As for feel, I remember hitting those TP-9s (one of the older lads and I were on the same junior club team, so he let me hit them), and I don't remember them being amazingly soft. All I remember is that they looked amazing but were bloody hard to hit!

[Foozle]

I have never been so lucky since but by fuelling my collecting habit (problem might be a better word!) that "bargain" has probably cost me thousands! It was a bit strange as I think my max bid was £50 which I thought was optimistic but for some reason no one else seemed to bid so I got them one bid over starting! They are nice clubs and were the dogs in the late '80s / early 90's but like you I don't find them exceptionally soft, not as hard as the MP32's but behind the MP14's and MS11's. Much probably depends on the shafts so with the ideal shaft for your swing the feel will be different and others will rank them differently. All part of the fun of experimenting and playing with vintage!

[dbg78]

FYI

I wrote this blog recently on TP-branded clubs.https://mizunotp.tech.blog/

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Good read, and well put together.

I recently bought a set of MS-7 irons here in Japan, and I think they are basically the TP-9s, except the specs are weird! The shaft in the PW is 36", increasing in 1/4" increments until 6i when it jumps 1/2". From what I found online, this seems to be normal for the MS-7, but the TP-9 specs are different. Incidentally, you said the MS-7 were a US release only. I am not disputing this, just wishing to add to your statement; I found my set online in Japan, but it's the first time I've seen them, so it could be a "reverse import". Now the TP-11s seem to be very similar to the MS-9s, which may or may not have been released in Japan. They also appear very similar to the old MP-4s, which were a US-only release (I think the first use of "MP" in Mizuno's club designation, but I might be wrong on that.

What really piqued my interest was the photo of the TP-11 "Craft Model" persimmon. Mizuno released a few Craft Models in Japan, both woods and irons, but they are fairly rare. The Craft Models seem to have been like car prototypes, whereby designers were given a lot of leeway to produce the "ideal" club shape. Craft Model clubs here came with a number. I have seen the Craft Model 893 and 911, but there may be more. I have a Mizuno Craft 36 driver, but I think it is separate from the Craft Model range. It is certainly less than an ideal club shape for me as it points about 20* left of where I want to hit the ball. I do like the shallow face, however.

[dbg78]

Some great stuff there.

MS-7 I am fairly sure were US only. The distinction I believe is that some USA models (MS-7; MS-8 & MS-9 for sure) from that era miss out the “Pro” in the “Mizuno Pro” script. Japan models have Mizuno Pro AND the MS model #. MS-7 are not identical to TP-9 - I am sure the blade is longer also.

UK (and Japan possibly?) had a Mizuno Pro MS-7 that was entirely different. Reverse muscle (see pic).

TP-11 are same heads as MS-9/MP-9 (USA had both, branding changeover in 1990 I think).

Pro MS-4 (made famous many years later by Payne Stewart) are similar but different. I haven’t seen them stamped as MP-4, as I think they predated the changeover.

Now then - Craft Model persimmons. I have come across a couple from Japan - 891 & 892 and three in UK/Europe (TP-11; 852 & 951). Unlike the Japan ones, the numbers do not correspond to the release year. All feature the same shape soleplate. The ones in Europe were certainly tour van only and all have a firing pin. Here are some that I own.

Soleplate are all the same shape, but different stampings as they changed the Mizuno Pro script during this time.

I have seen your club before, it’s a strange one, pretty cool though.

Are you based in Japan? It costs me a fortune to add to the collection from there - access to a postal address would be a massive help! A set of Craft Model blades is high on the list to match these persimmons. Happy to pay reasonable administrative fees, but proxy bidding services are very expensive.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Very interesting. I think you're right that the MS-7 that looks like the TP-9 (but perhaps is not identical) was a US only release. That would explain the 36" shaft in the PW. Really unusual specs, in fact, because the shaft length increases by 1/4" increments until the 6 iron, when it jumps by 1/2" to the 5i, and then in 1/2" increments down to the 2i (I don't have the 1i). Also the DGS300 shaft in mine suggests they maybe US, as the DGS200 is and was more prevalent in Japan, but that by itself is not particularly strong proof, just mildly supporting. Here's the back of my MS-7 6i. You'll notice it only says "Mizuno" and not Mizuno Pro.

Now the MS-7 you posted with the reverse muscle I HAVE seen here, but only once. I would guess then that it was NOT a Japan release, more likely Europe before then adopted the TP designation. It reminds me of the MS-3 that was also a reverse muscle design, though the MS-7 you posted seems to have a squarer toe. Same blanks with a different grind, perhaps? The MS-3s can be found with different versions of the "Mizuno Pro" script; the earlier ones have shorter cursive lines, and the later ones longer, which suggests they were still being manufactured after the TN-87s (short cursive lines).

As for the early Mizuno Pro MP-4, this site has a picture if you scroll down a little. No information on it, though.https://ameblo.jp/inuken-2019/entry-12448582152.html

Now, I have only seen Mizuno Craft 853, 911, and 951 (?), so those 852s are new to me. I wonder if the 911 corresponded to the Mizuno Craft TP11 in Europe? The only 951 (think it was 1, may have been a different last digit) that I saw on an auction site was, if I recall, unshafted, so it may have been a prototype. I'm guessing the woods came out right as metalwoods were taking over?

 

Yes, I do live in Japan. Incidentally, I see Craft Model irons come up for auction now and again, but they're not cheap.

[dbg78]

The TP-11 was a much earlier club in the UK. Became available in the tour van around ‘88 I think. I have one with a TP soleplate too.

MS-3, think I have accounted for three completely different heads stamped with MS-3 now - some strange stuff around that time!

Have you seen a firing pin in any of the Japan Craft Models? I haven’t, and yet all the models in the UK feature this. On the subject of persimmons - the best ones from Mizuno in Europe are the World Masters. I haven’t seen much of these in Japan - only a couple, plus a nice iron set and some layer metal woods. Do you come across the persimmons much?

All very interesting. Thanks

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

@dbg78
To be honest, the Craft model clubs I have seen here have been mostly irons, not woods. I can't remember what that Craft Model 95? looked like because it's been a while since I saw it.

Mizuno World Masters? Don't think I have seen those. I have a couple of Mizuno Augusta Masters/ANGC iron sets, when Mizuno had some sort of collaboration going with Augusta National, but I doubt that's the same ting. They had woods accompanying the sets as well, but I haven't got any.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/443/AXJ1VO7VX9IZ.jpg[/img]

[dbg78]

Nice Masters set. They had some good ones. I think technically the license agreement still exists between Mizuno and Augusta, but I may be mistaken.

Here is an example of a Mizuno World Master. They had many different combinations of inserts, stains & shafts. They are, undoubtedly in my mind, the best persimmons produced by the company. I have a couple in transit from Japan at the moment - the first ones I have seen on auction sites from there.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

I just looked up the World Master and saw an iron set or two for sale. I must say, I've never heard of them, or noticed them, before. Nice looking wood, though.

Have you heard of Mizuno's "Mark of Reliance"? Only thing I have managed to find out about them is that were a custom order, but I'm not even sure that's true. It's a small-headed 3w with about 13* of loft. Carbon shaft (original), and nice grain.

[NRJyzr]

 

That makes sense, as the TP-11 appears to be nearly the same as the MS-9/MP-9, which was released around that same time.

Years ago, I'd read the MS line were Asian market, while MP were US market. That may have been an assumption on the part of someone, as I'm in the US and have seen a few MS sets around, as well as owning a set of MS-11s.

[dbg78]

That looks a stunning little club. Haven’t seen one. Looks more like the Grand Monarch style from Mizuno - i.e. luxury item rather than pro/staff model. Beautiful.

I find it strange that the World Master persimmon isn’t around much in Japan, particularly since they launched the iron set and a couple of superb metal woods with that branding. They got a LOT of play on European tour in 80’s. Here’s some others.

Great to chat to someone with knowledge of Japan sets... any intel on release date for the Super-11 iron set?

[dbg78]

The TP-11 I was referring to is a Europe tour-van persimmon Model.

TP-11 irons are indeed the same head as MS/MP-9.

MS was briefly used in all three markets - Japan, USA and Europe (early 80’s). Europe went to TP in 1986, USA went to MP in ~1989/90. Japan stayed MS for a good while longer.

[NRJyzr]

 

This is where my rather late arrival into the game of golf rears its head. I lack a lot of that background that everyone else can take for granted, having lived through it. I was busy playing pickup basketball, baseball, and eventually slow pitch softball in those years.

All that time missed.

It's part of the irony I find in my being one of the flag carriers for Ram. I didn't join the party until most everyone had left....

[justasgood]

Wish there was more info readily available regarding the “Craft” line of Mizuno. Seem to be top quality. Here are my 911 Craft Made irons....quite sublime:

 

[dbg78]

Absolutely superb. TN-87, MS-203, Super-11, Craft Model 911 and 893 are my top-5 holy grail Mizuno models. All look outstanding.

I have five Craft Model persimmons. All lovely. Time, effort and an incredible attention to detail were put into these clubs.

[justasgood]

Why so hard to find info on these irons? Were they limited?

[dbg78]

Limited in time period I think (Craft Models and Super-11) but not in number. VERY expensive is the reason not many sets were sold is my assumption.

[No_Catchy_Nickname]

Based on what I've found from a few Japanese blogs, the Super 11 appear to have been released in 1993. A couple of bloggers said they were great irons, based off the MS-11s, and similar to the later MP33s, but with a thicker sole and muscle, producing a denser feel. Also, one guy posited that they didn't gain a huge following because of the unusual finish (nickel and something, not chrome?).

I did find a site with the Super 11 specs a couple of years ago, but that seems to have disappeared. If I remember correctly, they had stronger lofts than the MS11s. Standard shafts included the NSPRO Super Peening Orange, and I've seen a few sets with that shaft in them. Others were FM Precisions and the TF-HM PRO 50 carbon shaft. I've also seen a few sets with the carbon shafts, which I find interesting because when I was playing in the early 90s in the UK, I don't remember anyone having carbon shafts in their irons.

The MS-203 were the Japanese version of the TP-19 irons, weren't they? I've read that they were similar, but not identical. The only way to find out is to compare them side-by-side!

 

[dbg78]

Thanks. 1993 looks spot on to me. The name would obviously suggest MS-11 similarities but to my eye they look almost closer to the MS-203.

MS-203 is indeed similar to TP-19. I think the obvious difference is the hosel length (MS-203 is huge). It’s generally accepted that Faldo won his last two majors with TP-19, but I think in reality it was a prototype that was closer to the MS-203 stamped up with TP branding. His last Open was ‘93 and the TP-19 came out in ‘93.

For me, the company was at its absolute peak from ~’86-‘94. So many incredible sets (and woods) in that short window.

[AddinsonLoftIII]

So I got a left handed set of 'Tour Proven Original' Mizunos off UK Ebay. I am curious about the golden serial number engraved on the ferrules -  201UK. Any of the aficionados here know what it refers to? Btw, @dbg78 your article on the Tour Proven Series was great, thank you.

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2023 by AddinsonLoftIII