Quail Hollow GC: Vastly Underrated?

[Lark]

Among the regular and long-time major venues in the US, where would you rank QH in this group? - Pebble Beach, Oakmont, Shinnecock, Winged Foot, Torrey Pines, Baltusrol, Pinehurst, Brookline, Bethpage, Valhalla, Whistling Straits, and Kiawah.

Just as a viewer, I think it compares favorably with Torrey, Baltusrol, and Valhalla (maybe), but not to the others.

[smashdn]

If I am thinking of the right hole and place, 18 produces interesting golf. Is it not the hole that has the ditch/man-made creek running vertically down through it? If so it must tempt guy to flirt with it as there are a few shots played from whatever the USGA is calling a water hazard these days.

[Lark]

According to the Fried Egg piece posted above, there is no reason to flirt with the creek. It says you get no advantage being on the left side of the fairway compared to the middle or right.

[smashdn]

Then I would venture the archie didn't use that feature to his advantage (or the hole has been tinkered with).

Watched a flyover from 2017 (hole may have changed since then) but I agree with what you are saying. There is no advantage. Green is on the right side of the creek. Most visible portion of the fairway is on the right side.

I would tinker with it. Have some option where taking on/crossing the creek is compelling with the drive and/or where you must cross it with your approach. Give the player the option to take it on twice or once but with a green where certain hole locations are better approached from one side or the other. Maybe the left side of fairway is riskier but offers a better angle into the green. Perhaps redo the green so it angles front left diagonal to back right so that from the easier/safer right half of fairway you play to the shallow angle of the green and from the left you play down the full length of the green and move the bunker more to the front so that from the right side you play over it.

[JohnnyCashForever]

Touche. Great question. When asked that way, it's hard to rank QH among the best courses in the world...which I consider Oakmont and Shinnecock to be. However, can't a course still be underrated without ever being seriously considered to be a top 10 course?

Instead of courageously answering your question, I do think QH would be a better US Open venue than Chambers Bay or Erin Hills were, when they had their chances.

[Lark]

I think Erin Hills and Chambers Bay could be great, but that the USGA screwed up the setups.

[Snoop Golfie Dogg]

I'll just say this. From 14 to the clubhouse, Quail Hollow is about as fun a golf course (to watch or play) as you're going to find. TV doesn't do it justice, either. There are some big damn hills out there.

[grm24]

QH is being rerouted for the Presidents Cup. Current holes 16-18 will be played as holes 13-15 for the Presidents Cup. Green Mile on the move in Presidents Cup re-routing

[MattyO1984]

I had very nearly written that Quail reminded me of a poor man’s Muirfield so we are definitely thinking on the same terms.

[Lark]

Probably to get better holes in match play.

[Lark]

The PGA announced QH for 2025.

[DLiver]

I think QH definitely belongs in that group. IMO Torrey Pines and Valhalla don't belong with the others in the group. Disclaimer: I haven't played Baltusrol or Bethpage.

Before I played QH, I felt like it was going to be a course I wouldn't like. I was completely wrong. It is a really really good course. 16-18 are very interesting. Demanding, but fair. 18 is easier than it looks on TV--just like 18 at Riviera, the approach shot is not uphill nearly as much as it looks on TV. The tee shot on 18 is a little like 18 at TPC Sawgrass, where you know you can't go left (yet some pros in contention do exactly that).

I suspect The Presidents Cup people are changing the routing because many of the matches don't make it to the final holes, and they wanted to make sure they players played those holes if at all possible.

[MUNIGRIT]

Hmm do they not want tough holes down the stretch?

[grm24]

If you read the article I linked it will explain why the routing was changed.

[BNGL]

gotta think of the dollar bills too. I doubt the article goes into the aspect, if it does not a deep dive but a lot of rerouting is driven by revenue, but go back Hazeltine that was the most blatant rerouting of a golf course for profits I’d seen in 24 years of golf course management.

[MUNIGRIT]

The exact opposite of what I said. They want players to play those holes.

[CaseyC]

Quail Hollow to host 2025 PGA Championship

Q

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

Or leave a hole that is entertaining well enough alone. I don't think every hole on every course must have some amazing strategic decision on every shot.

Lots of 18th holes require you to follow a set route from tee to green. Bethpage's 18 basically asks you to hit a long, straight drive, followed by an approach up the hill. Even Augusta's 18 is basically hit it through the tree tunnel, be long enough to see the green around the trees, don't go in the sand. The pros may know not to go left, but perhaps that knowledge leads to playing mind games with themselves.

 

[Lark]

If it would be a better hole with more strategic decision or risk reward shots, why choose to keep it boring? The 18th at Bethpage is considered one of its weaknesses.

[BNGL]

[smashdn]

"Or leave a hole that is entertaining well enough alone. I don't think every hole on every course must have some amazing strategic decision on every shot."

 

My thought was really why are we cutting the left hand side to fairway height if there is no compelling reason to hit it over there in its current form?

[James the Hogan Fan]

As in the other side of the creek? So as to give the crowd a good place to be and to not punish shots on that side so severely with rough I suppose? My home course has a par 3 with a creek in front of the green, and the 20 yards leading up to the creek are cut at fairway height although you should never be 20-30 short there. (and yet I find myself there often) Maybe it's the same concept. Perhaps the design intent was simply to make the hole hard, but straightforward no matter how one choses to play it, and thus the specifics of how to play it were left relatively ambiguous? I don't disagree that you could move the hole and make it more interesting, I meant that the hole doesn't necessarily have to be changed to produce dramatic golf.

[smashdn]

I just found this ... https://thefriedegg.com/improving-18th-at-quail-hollow-club/

 

He is saying what I was thinking. In my mind I want the creek to be the principle driving hazard. But at the moment there is no reason to flirt with it. You don't gain much of anything by playing closer to it. And, unfortunately, 290 is carried by a fair number of guys now. If the creek was more center down the fairway and there was a clear advantage to playing to the green from one side of the other (I don't care which side as long as with the driver you have to contend with the hazard to get to the preferred side) you'd have guys making a decision based upon what they needed at that final hole. Do I need birdie and would benefit from having the easier angle to the green or will par or even bogey be fine and I can afford to be conservative off the tee.

Risk without reward is just window dressing. Window dressings add expense and complicate maintenance.

 

I don't care for the proposed fix with moving the green to the other side of the creek though. If I were ruler of the Quail Hollows I would expand the back half of the existing green to eat up most if not all of the back right bunker and then pull the front right bunker around more in the front of the green. Now you have an open left hand side, albeit you now must carry the creek with your approach, or you can play safely to the right hand side off the tee but must carry the bunker to get to the right hand side and you have the creek on the left hand side of the green. Strategy off the tee is influenced very heavily by where the hole is cut that day.