Mizuno HMB vs. TM P790 vs. 716 T-MB/AP2

[Mahamilto]

I have been eyeing the HMBs since their launch and suddenly last night the wife says "go for it" on new irons. Obviously we are in quarantine so it is impossible to go hit everything side by side, so I wanted some feedback from guys who have demoed these irons, ESPECIALLY about their heel to toe forgiveness. To get it out of the way, I have already read EVERY thread on these irons I can find and watched numerous reviews; I'm really looking for feedback from people who have owned both or got fit.

I'm playing off a 7-10hcp in the last year with 716 T-MBs 4-6i and 718 AP2s in 7i-GW. Swing speed is about 115 driver and low 90s on 6-iron. I like my sticks, but find my toe miss to be very iffy.

I have hit the HMBs and P790s a few times in hitting bays, but at that time I was under threat of death if I bought new irons, so it was more for fun than anything. I was floored by the HMBs in feel and they really performed well in spin/launch, but the demo was short and I didn't hit enough balls to see how forgiving it was.

I've also hit P790s several times and overall did like them, but they were almost too long in the middle of the set and didn't spin as much as I would like. I hit the full set once, and the gapping certainly needed work. I understand this is because of the jacked lofts, and I could bend them weak, but this would impact bounce some, and I'm kinda iffy on doing that.

So any solid input would really be appreciated. Would the HMBs or P790s be noticeably more forgiving than my current T-MB/AP2 combo? Anyone have HMBs/P790s/T-MBs and prefer one over the other? Why?

[kgk]

I don't think the HMBs are much more forgiving than the T-MBs, if at all. They do "feel" better to me as well as look better.

I play the HMB 4-5 in combo with MP20 MMCs and they're SWEET at that job. Launch high for long irons, look good, feel good... just wonderful.

No input on P790s, sorry I can't help there.

[KMeloney]

I went from 714 AP2s to the 790s, and the 790s are much more forgiving/consistent on mishits. Can't speak to the Mizunos.

[MongoSmash]

I’ve hit 790 v HMB extensively...and somewhat luckily I had BAD ball striking day. The reason I mention that is because I found the 790 more forgiving. Period.

the HMBs look better, and when hit well, they feel AWESOME, better than the 790.

i’m a 13 handicap. As much I would love to play the HMBs. I would have to play the 790 for forgiveness. :(

[Mahamilto]

Interesting.

Were you using the 2017 or 2019 P790 version?

[lefty1978]

I have HMB in 3 and 4 iron (MP20 SEL set). They are extremely forgiving in 3 and 4 iron, I can't imagine how easy the rest of the set would be. 7-10 handicap should easily be able to play HMBs.

[MongoSmash]

I was hitting 2019

[Drivingrangehero]

i think the best advise you can get, is get fit before purchasing anything new....... With that being said in the current corona virus restrictions then you may have to reconsider purchasing until this subsided and you can get fit.......

If it’s now or never, due to your wife giving you the HELL NO in a few weeks time, then invest some time into exploring your best options

You had issues with gapping and lack of spin with the P790’s, but that’s only part of the story. What shafts were in them? What ball were you hitting? What type of flight and spin do you have? So, the way I see it, is you have limited yourself to two options with these clubs.

1 A shaft change. If you are buying new, there are many options that may best fit your swing, and some may work better for you in the P790, but not as well in the T-Mb or vice verse. Figure out what you like for shaft weight 105-110-120-130 and find something that may be more active in the spin dept.

2 Rule them out and move on.

You have Some T-MB’s now. What do you not like about them, other than toe side off centered strikes in comparison to the HMB’s or the P790’s . How is your flight, spin? What shafts do you have in them currently?

If you like the HMB’s, do you recall the shaft they had in them? Shafts tend to be where feel is most.

I have hit the HMB’s and T-MB’s ( as a matter of fact, I just bought a used set of T-MB’s yesterday, so they are being shipped now) The P790’s I have only hit with a PX 6.5 shaft, so it’s hard to compare to the HMB’s because I tried out the PX 6.5, C-Tapers, PX 6.5 LZ and the modus 120x + Tx

I found that I liked the Modus shaft best, and it gave me the best results, next would be the PX LZ

I was carrying a T-MB 2 iron, and I’ve hit the 7 iron and 4 iron a bunch to test.

Honestly, I think with the right shaft to head combo on any set, you would be making a good purchase. They are all similar, but have their own strong suits.

in order for me to compare each club, I’d have to compare the feel and numbers of each with the PX 6.5 shaft, which is a shaft I don’t care for. They all were pretty similar but had their own characteristics.

Im a low trajectory, mid -high spin guy. My spin numbers are usually 1000x the number of club in my hand 7 iron 7000+ rpm and so on. My tempo is slow-moderate and I hit my 7 iron speed is 95 mph.

P790’s were the lowest spin, straightest and longest (sometimes I’d hit a push trying to hit draws)

The HMB’s were the easiest to hit high draws with (my natural swing is low with very little draw)

The T-MB’s I feel I had the best ability to shape both left and right and easiest to flight. (They were also the highest spinning for me, but not in a bad way)

I feel that given some time to get fit, I could find the right combo of shaft for each and game any of the 3 sets happily.

tell us more about your swing!

spin

launch

flight

current shafts

misses

are you steep, or a sweeper?

The more information provided, the more people can provide helpful insight.

happy hunting!

[Mahamilto]

Mid-high spin and launch. With AMTx100 in my T-MBs and x100 in my AP2s I was about 6700 on 7iron at 85-90mph.

Swing is pretty flat, transition is fairly smooth.

Miss is almost always left; maybe 75% of the time. Ball flight is fairly straight most of the time with a baby draw on there too.

I do try to move the ball both ways, but only when the shot really calls for it. Playing about an 8HCP I play mostly point and shoot.

I like my current setup, but small toe misses really get punished. I also think a slightly bigger club head will be beneficial as after June I will be starting a job working 80hr a week 6 days a week. Practice time is already low but will become zero, and I’ll play 2x a month max (vs my 4-6x a month lately).

I also played forged irons for a long time before the T-MBs (obviously my AP2 short irons are forged) and I miss that softer feel. I started playing the X ball in Bridgestone and Titleist and miss some of the feel from before, but the ball performs.

I can also give more updates soon, I got a great deal on a set of HMBs today with my specs in DG120x; should be here by end of next week.

So I’ll give an in depth review after for sure. I’m very excited to play them and have had eyes for them since the debut and when I hit them at the big box store 2x.

[Mahamilto]

Trying to figure it all out currently. I got the HMBs and love the look and feel without question. Compared to my TMB/AP2 combo, they are bigger heel to toe (something I wanted), with an acceptably slightly thicker top line (not obnoxious), slightly thicker sole (plays similar to me), and less offset in the long irons, but more in the short irons. The AP2s feel a tad softer, but the HMBs are much softer and better sounding than the T-MBs. Overall, I prefer the look of the AP2 short irons, but dramatically prefer the look of the HMB long irons.

Performance I can’t figure out yet, and that’s really what drove my purchase. First round out with HMBs I proceed to fire a 76... lowest round in 18 months. Next 3 rounds are 78/82/80/86... with the 86 at Bethpage Black, from the tips, on a poor day with the driver. Sounds pretty amazing, but I’m not 100% sold yet because I can’t quite figure them out.

A few things, #1 my distances are whacky. I’ll 100% admit that 3/4 rounds were on very windy days and that makes it so hard to actually get any idea. I also haven’t had any chance to hit them side by side (ranges are closed here). My next round I’m taking the 7i and 5i of both with me and every time I draw either club I will be hitting them side by side. But so far I can’t figure out how far I hit them, or how consistent the distances are (specifically in the 5-7i). I’ve hit shots I thought should carry a bunker (with arccos data, and going off my old clubs) and landed in after feeling centered. I’ve also hit a few that went much further than expected. Again, a lot of wind, so hard to tell, but the distances and distance control in the middle of the bag concerned me some.

#2 I can’t tell if they are more forgiving than my currents, and I bought them pretty much because by size/design they should be a bit more forgiving. I felt like the thin shots fell off more than my AP2s, but again, wind and no side to side, so hard to tell. I think they are at least equal or better on toe side misses.

#3 After my frustrating 86 at Black, I wanted the best head to head possible so I re-bagged the old set to play Black again later that week. Of course this time I go out and hit fairways and drop 82, with my short game and putting being much worse than the 86 round (which was admittedly saved by my scrambling and putter). I can’t even begin to say this was a fair comparison. Hitting from fairways at Black vs. the rough may as well be comparing a driving range mat to sand, but I did hit some stud shots with the old set and then just missed my birdies. In other words the 86 could have been 90+ and my 82 could have been 77. Fair? No. Less wind and fairway lies with my old sticks.

#4 I LOVE THE HMB SHORT IRONS. What? Huh? I don’t know what the deal is, but my shots with the 8-PW in the HMBs have been nothing short of absurd. What I haven’t figured out is the distances (specifically) and the forgiveness of the 4-7i. This shocked me. I figured the long and mid irons would blow me away and I could be looking for an MMC/MB combo on the short irons. Nope. Love the scoring clubs in the HMBs, as much or more than my AP2s. This was a huge surprise.

#5 Spin is fine. Holding greens fine. Trajectories similar to old set. Very happy here and wasn’t looking for anything to change. Glad it didn’t.

I love them and want to bag them, but I’m conflicted. I can’t justify it if they aren’t more forgiving. Distances I don’t really care as long as they are consistent, which I haven’t been able to figure out. I don’t need any more than the 175 I already hit my 7i.

I’ll update more when I get out this Wednesday (Pound Ridge baby) with 2 5’s and 2 7’s in the bag.

[Phreddy]

I hit the HMB's vs the 790's today at a fitters shop. I liked them both, but at the end of the day I think I will be playing the HMB's. I found the current 790's to have a softer or less harsh feel and more consistent ball flight than the introductory version. Feel is completely subjective, but I ended up with the HMB's. I lost 2-3 yards of distance compared to the 790's but I preferred the higher ball flight.

Phred

[Mahamilto]

Hit the HMBs really really well the last 2 rounds. More to come, but I think I’m figuring them out. They are a bit more point and shoot (want to go straight) than my AP2s, and especially as I’m going to be playing less consistently in the near future, this is something I’m looking for. Right now I’m hitting it well enough to try to work some balls, but when my 2 rounds a week drops to 1 a month with my new job, some aim straight go straight is what I’m hoping for. Will update again soon.

[magnus7319]

I’ve had sets of the T-mb and 790s and consistent distance just never happened. I found the 790s way more forgiving, but again, just couldn’t dial them in. It seemed like anything not hit 100% didn’t go anywhere, then anything I got after just flew for days. No in-between.

 

I guess I’m not surprised that the 3 sets of irons you debated (including the Mizunos) are all players distance hollow head springy face irons & you can’t dial in the distance. Seems to be many in the same boat as you (and me).

 

 

[Mahamilto]

I never had any issues dialing in distances with the T-MBs, with the exception of the toe misses being fairly punishing. The HMBs were also extremely consistent last round. I just have to make a choice coming up. I’ll admit that the AP2 back to front dispersion is probably a bit tighter, but only when I’m hitting the irons well. I do love the AP2s and may end up with them over the HMBs, but only if they are close to as forgiving as the HMBs, which I’m sorting out now.

I’m not a huge believer in this hot spot myth. Every iron, from blade to hollow, has a spot that is the hottest. Anywhere off that spot you lose ballspeed. To be honest, blades, by design, will lose the most ballspeed as you get off that spot. The forgiving iron is the one that retains the most ball speed (and spin) as you wander from the sweet spot.

I do, however, feel some irons lose a ton of spin when struck high on the face. This is especially true of some of the very low cog irons, but that, again, is by design. Players cavity and blade irons have higher CGs so there is less vertical gear effect. You see this on drivers; high face shots have significantly lower spin. On driver, the font to back dispersion matters much less, so this is largely irrelevant, on irons, it matters a lot, but a hot spot it is not.

I haven’t gotten any of the fliers people sometimes complain about with P790 and similar from the HMBs, but I just can’t figure out my distances with them in general. A lot of this is due to playing in some serious wind lately. My most recent round it was calm and my distances were spot on to what I expect from a set with almost the same lofts as the AP2s.

I really like the set to be honest; I just can’t tell yet if they are making my misses significantly better (vs the AP2). I can say that they are DIRECTIONALLY more forgiving. I can over cook a draw with the AP2s on a poor swing where as the HMBs want to fly straighter. I’m just also hoping my toe miss holds more distance vs the same miss on AP2. This I haven’t figured out yet.

At this point, it’s a toss up. The HMBs make my direction more point and shoot, and as I stop playing consistently this is something I would like. I do have to work harder to fade/draw them; something I like on days I’m not dialed in, but something I’ll miss when I’m playing well enough to really want to shape my shots.

The HMBs aren’t extremely long, maybe just gained 1-3 yards over the AP2s, but given they have almost the same loft progression, I wasn’t expecting this to go soaring up either.

I just have to spend a bit more time with them, see how that toe miss is, and decide what my priorities are.

 

[forrester_fire]

Are you married to the HMB? The JPX 919 Forged are the same blade length, same lofts, a one-piece forging, slightly more forgiving, and price reduced right now. I will readily admit that the HMB will probably look better in the bag though.

[Old Tom Morris]

The P790 will be a step backwards. Low spin, high launch, really a game improvement iron. i would only get the 2,3,4 irons in P790, you will be disappointed in the short iron performance coming from 718 AP2s.

[Mahamilto]

I flat out can’t stomach the amount of offset in the JPX forged. If it had the offset of the HM Pro, they would be in my bag. Same goes for irons like the i210... I understand the offset is there because it helps long irons get the ball in the air (something I don’t need help with anyway), but my God do I hate the way it looks. It also gives me the lefts, which people have debated till they are blue in the face, but it’s a simple reality from many sets I’ve bagged that high offset long irons just do not work for me.

[Jeff58]

P790 user here. “Normal” irons, as you say, loose distance when struck away from the center of mass. The problem generically with hollow irons is that they also change ball speed with change in impact angle. With driver, which obviously also has a significant COR, we expect that all impacts are essentially perpendicular with the target line. In that case, face compression is fairly repeatable.

With a iron, that’s not the case. From iron to iron, and shot to shot, the angle between the target and face changes, and in many cases, the ball slides up the face, which means the effective COR is changing as well. Mystery fliers occur for a very non-mysterious reason, you de-loft the club, turning it into mini-driver.

Some swing-types generate more angle variation than others, sweepers being the worst. Regardless, there’s basically no way that high-COR irons are going to be as consistent as standard irons in actual play conditions. It’s the price you pay for the added distance. If you don’t need the extra distance, you’re shooting your consistency in the foot.

[Mahamilto]

This topic that has and will be debated indefinitely on this forum. No matter which side you are on, it is fair to say that hands down the biggest variation in distance for amateur golfers is due to missing the center. Period.

Even at a mid single digit cap I miss the center too regularly to have a great back to front dispersion with very unforgiving models, which I won’t call out by their category as I fear the wrath of their devoted followers. Sure, on my best ball striking days I could even play better with those kinds of clubs, but on my worst I’d be coming up way short on every other hole. I tried it; it wasn’t pretty

For a players cavity, I find the AP2 quite forgiving. I had a full set of TMBs, and the only reason I added the AP2s to combo was for softer feel, a lower trajectory, and more spin. Loved the TMBs, but the short irons went super high and were hard to flight. Of note, the HMB short irons are much easier to flight, and it is my understanding the 9/PW lack the tungsten and are only partially hollow. Nice play Mizzy. From what my arccos tells me, my dispersion and distances with the tmb vs AP2 short irons didn’t really change, though I do like the lower ball flight and the softer touch.

I’m very data driven.Its easy to recall one long miss with a hollow back and say “there is the flyer I keep hearing about,” but if I look at the 100+ shots I’ve hit with both sets, I have a bunch of long and short misses with them both. I’ve airmailed some greens with AP2s and my data says, on full shots especially, the overall patterns were very similar.

I think if you really wear out the center, then you probably do have more control using a lower COR iron, but if you wear out the center you would probably be accurate with anything. If you are not wearing dimes into your clubs, more ball speed retention off the center (hollow body or not) is bound to give you a tighter pattern.

[Pworld]

I think i am starting to notice this with my P790 set (i usually blame the indian though). All my distances jumped (with great accuracy) on my 5-7 irons over previous set. By 15-20 yards. Yes.

But 8-PW? I have been almost dumbfounded that the distances are the same as my old set.

 

Anyway. i am looking to try the MP20 HMB this weekend in a full fitting against the new P790. This thread is interesting.

[asKaasa]

HMB 3-6 in my backup set. Love them! Long irons are launching easily and the feel is amazing.

[Mahamilto]

I found the exact thing in a demo of a preowned set at PGASuperstore.

7i went 200 no problem, the 9 146. Crazy. Also the 4 and 5 both went the same distance. The lifts on those would have to be adjusted to even consider playing

[CROUSE99]

I may be wrong, but I think the distance issues with the mid irons is because of the wind you've been playing in. I play the HMBs, but am a slow swinger so my experiences probably won't mean much to you. I find them to be consistent but punishing of a thin miss. Toe misses are so so. I really think to get a lot of forgiveness on toe misses, you have to go to a big, SGI iron.

[Mahamilto]

Yeah. I’m talking more relative forgiveness vs my tmb/ap2 combo; comparing to a genuine GI/SGI iron isn't fair, and the set I'm coming from isn't that anyway. I did play yesterday at Mill Pond in calmer conditions, results were good with quick summary below. Shot a 12 month low 74 (+4) with great iron play, so they are growing on me for sure!(HMB vs. U500 4-iron) Hit the U500 vs the HMB side by side and found the U500 to fly a tad higher with what looked like a touch more spin; this I would prefer, but the HMB went exactly where I put it and the U500 wasn't close in terms of accuracy. This could be a small sample size, but all 4 HMB 4irons were dead on (2 GIR and 2 fairways) where the U500 went high left twice on approaches and missed one fairway right. It just was harder to hit a dead straight shot with it, where the HMB was outright effortless.(Forgiveness) Thin miss is shorter, but I’m not sure if its same/worse/better than my currents. I agree with the other poster that the thin miss is the most punished, so far at least. If feel the blade is a bit bigger and so far my toe miss is better. I play again today, but it is windy. (Feel/Sound) They feel almost as soft as the AP2 in the 7-PW and softer than the TMB 5/6 irons. They don't have the same solid mush feeling as the AP2s though, but I am willing to give that up as I get significantly more softness in the longer irons. The sound is also very nice. They are only a tad louder than my AP2, and sound just like my TMBs to be honest (which are muted for hollow irons). Sounds like a genuine player iron and nothing like a hybrid.(Accuracy/Performance) Accuracy with short irons has tossed any idea of a combo set out for now. I wondered if I would go MP20MMC in the 8-PW (sorta how my set evolved from full TMB to my combo), but I have just outright loved the short irons in these sticks, at least so far. I also put 4 shots within 15' (made 2 for birdie) with HMB (9i x2, 7i, 6i), with one of them caught thin and one caught fairly toey. They were a joy to hit. I may just be finding out how to hit them, and I agree with the poster above that the thin miss is the worst spot on the club, but from what I can tell it is not much different than my thin miss with the TMB6i. (Turf interaction/Sole) The thing that really worried me initially about the HMBs is that the footprint is a bit larger than TMB/AP2. The titleists have a great shape with a little pre-worn leading edge, while the HMBs are both longer and slightly thicker. I am delighted to say that even out of thick rough I haven't seen a big change. The mizzy sole cuts through nicely. It must still be on the right side of length/thickness, as it plays through turf much better than other larger irons I have tried in the past. Very happy with turf interaction.

Will continue to update, I play again today (with it being windy though).

 

 

[pheenomz4774]

I did a fitting last Friday totally banking on ordering a set of 919 Hot Metal Pros or 919 Forged because of the price reduction but left dropping the extra $$ on the HMBs.

Looks, consistency, and dispersion were too much to ignore and I hate spending money. Pretty much ruined me getting a SIM Hybrid because of the extra cost but I enjoyed about every swing in the 40 minute session. I played the P790s in previous years and do not remember getting the same consistent performance out of those clubs.

[herbert7890]

I also have the HMB in the 3 and 4 irons (another lefty with the SEL) and they are EXTREMELY easy to hit, high and literally no roll when landing on a green. I have never hit so many greens with long irons before. If these are categorized as "harder to hit" than the P790, those 790s must pretty much hit themselves.