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Kevin Na vs WRX


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Droop is not a clubhead performance characteristic. A steel brick of the same weight on the end of the shaft will deflect the same as the clubhead. Thus, nothing specific about clubhead design changes droop. The shaft torsional and longitudinal stiffness slightly affects droop. The shaft impacts the ball speed coming off the clubface slightly per the paper @mahonie posted earlier in this thread for drivers (primarily poor, well off center hits). I speculated that something similar probably occurs with irons, although the magnitude of the effect is likely even less due to the smaller face area and dramatically different mass distribution.

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Mmmk, but physics dont lie.

When a golfer commences their down swing and the club head accelerates towards the ball, the effect of centrifugal force kicks in and the centre of gravity of the club head tries to align itself with the shaft, this causes the shaft to flex and bow, flattening the lie angle between 0.5 or 2deg's depending on the following :

 

 

 

1. The swing speed of the golfer

 

2. The length and flex of the shaft (particularly the tip flex)

 

3. Club head length (the position of its centre of gravity)”

And from Tom Wishon, note the part in bold:

 

 

 

Wishon 

 

 

 

Over the past 2 yrs we have done a LOT of work in this area of understanding exactly HOW the shaft bends and under what conditions for each golfer. I really do believe that we have a good level of understanding about this to be able to explain and predict shaft performance.

 

 

 

The droop bending of the shaft is caused initially by the force of the transition move the golfer makes between the end of the backswing and the beginning of the downswing. When the club is at the top of the backswing, the golfer has rotated the club and shaft about 90 degrees open from the position the club was in at the address position. This means that the 12 o'clock/6 o'clock plane of the shaft is pretty much lined up so that plane is straight up/down with respect to the ground. Thus when the golfer starts the club down, the weight of the head presents resistance to this reversed movement of the club to start the downswing.

 

 

 

That causes the shaft to bend in a "toe up" position initially. The amount of bending from the transition is determined by three things - 1) the transition force of the golfer 2) the overall stiffness of the shaft compared to the golfer's transition force, 3) the weight of the head.

 

 

 

As the club now starts down toward the ball, the golfer has to rotate the club back around as he turns his body back toward the target. In a good golf swing as you know, the golfer is able to keep accelerating the club and retain the angle between the arms and the shaft (wrist-hinge angle). If this happens, the golfer is now applying a good amount of radial acceleration (AKA tangential acceleration) all through the downswing and this keeps a bending force on the shaft.

 

 

 

As the club gets closer to impact, there comes a time when the golfer has to unhinge the wrist-hinge angle to straighten out the club so it can hit the ball. when this release happens, now you have centrifugal force being applied to the club in addition to the radial acceleration. Now also remember, during this time in the downswing, the club has been rotated back around toward being square at impact. Thus if the golfer is still applying a good deal of radial acceleration to the club when they release the wrist-hinge and also start applying the centrifugal force, these forces now act on the weight of the head to now cause bending of the shaft in a droop manner (toe down bending). This happens because the head reacts to the force by trying to get its CG in line with the axis of the shaft, which thus causes the toe down bending just prior to impact.

 

 

And again, the amount of droop is determined by 1) amount of radial acceleration and centrifugal force applied by the golfer, 2) stiffness design of the shaft in relation to those forces, 3) weight of the head, 4) distance that the CG of the head is away from the centerline of the shaft.

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I would be the last person on this site to dispute the physics. However, the real issue is how much difference in droop would you find between any two iron head designs you wish to choose (same loft/number). Given the minimal differences in mass and CG location, I don't believe there will be a significant difference in droop between two different clubhead designs. Once again I would agree to disagree.

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one more physics titbit which this relates to:

 

The magnitude of the torque depends on:Radius r: Increasing the radius increases the torque. Angle between the force and lever arm θ: Directing a force perpendicular to the lever arm increases the torque.

therefor the further away the cg (increased radius) the more torque it creates.

So now your saying its so small, its insignificant. But significant enough for wishon to mention it. i cant back it up with proof but id say its almost as important as the torque handling of the shaft. Thats why you have to marry the two together.

heres an interesting video in the subject:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G6a1Sr6gb98&t=631s

When the lie angle is bent so the cg got further away from the shaft, the toe droop increased.

 

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You guys have gotten into the insignificant/irrelevant weeds. You can assume for the sake of the discussion, shafts are identical. This is a club head design discussion, not a shaft discussion. Come back to the fundamental question above. Does more distance or more accuracy improve your score? That’s the discussion in a nutshell. And it’s probably a complicated answer. For a high handicap golfer who isn’t accurate or long at all, some extra distance probably has a better chance of improving their score. A low handicap golfer who hits it far already will score better with more accurate club heads. That’s Probably why you see so many pros in blades disagreeing with Na.

 

And I’ve lived on both sides of this argument. I once played my best golf playing blades, but it was also when I played the most. So at the time, the accuracy and shotmaking was definitely more important and had a greater impact on my ability to score. I slowly was enticed over to the cavity back side of the world, and I don’t really play as well if I’m being honest. Yes, I can hit it further, and maybe I get forgiven a touch more on a bad shot (but I’m honestly not even sure), but for a better golfer a “bad” shot is normally a little to the toe, or a little to the heel. For a higher handicap golfer that “bad” shot could be all the way to the edge of the face, just barely on the face. Those are 2 very different misses and also explain part of why this discussion cannot be so easily generalized. The ability of the player probably has a big impact on which element (distance, or accuracy) is a more important benefit in scoring. But I’m slowly starting to head back to the blade side of the golf world because I never really saw an “improvement” in scoring with the increased “forgiveness/distance”. Said even stronger, I’m not even sure how much more forgiveness I’m really getting in the cavity back, since I’m not generally missing the center by a ton. And in the end, I already hit it far enough. So shaping and shot control seems to have a bigger impact on my score than more distance. So I think I’m swinging back over to the new crossfield argument that blades are actually a better scoring tool.

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@dekez On Golfwrx anything can be argued, whether the argument has merit is another discussion.
IMO - Pro's, in general, want all the help they can get to make cuts which also promotes equipment; like Na. If they don't make money and get on camera, it eventually leads to concerned sponsors saying do better or else we rethink the contract.
Interesting how many pros play blades and appear to be doing fine with them, yet they tend not to discuss their irons much. Doing so doesn't sell core product lines where the margins are. From what I see OEM's are changing how they market and to whom. Titleist seldom promoted 714CB or 716CBs or similar, and nothing has been said about TM-TW irons. Today, 620CBs and MBs are getting air time. And some OEM's that never bothered with blades, like Tour Edge, are bringing blades to market. Me thinks that segment of golfers is growing contrary to what's said on Golfwrx db.
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You bring up some interesting points. I don't have a firm opinion on the matter. I'm neither a blade nor a cavity back guy. I just wouldn't have picked that stat to argue that everyone should be playing blades. The top 20 players in the entire world don't need much help. The guy 120th on the money list probably needs a little more. The 1,000th, a little more than that. Maybe those stats would have been better. Anyway, that was just my reaction. You countered that perhaps they ARE getting more help by playing blades as evidenced by how well they are playing. I've not thought of it that way... which is the entire point of these forums.

I think the marketing is about establishing brand credibility via exposure on the tour rather than promoting specific iron heads. There is absolutely nothing that my game has in common with a professional golfer. So what irons they play couldn't possibly matter. But the average Joe probably takes some comfort in getting a brand that they see the players using as opposed to a Kmart branded club.

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He is correct that the effect would be minimal or insignificant in a properly fitted club. If "toe droop" was that significant then everyone would be all over the place on a strike board. I can take a regular flex and a stiff flex shaft that are to my "static" fitting specs(loft and lie), and the strikes on the tape or strike board will be the same. If toe droop was that significant between shaft flexes we would all see significantly different strike patterns on a strike board during fittings when switching out shafts.

IMO fitters who put significant weight into "toe droop" are generally the ones that are trying to upsell some form of "puring".

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Well you certainly make an argument for shafts having a very small role in toe droop. Keep in mind that if you get 1 or 2 degrees of toe droop, thats essentially the same as having irons bent 1-2 degrees flat, and im pretty sure that alot of people would say thats significant. I think it definitely is something that needs to be considered with big sgi irons (large blade lengths) with weaker shafts. That combo could have a decent amount of droop, and a fitter should bend irons upright to counter it. Im not a fitter and i have no proof of any if this, but just purely speaking on a physics standpoint. Could be just incidental but Txg had shown in that video that simply bending flat increased droop.

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This thread makes me feel like there's going to be a test at the end.

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My GIR average hovered around 7-8 for several years. Last year it was over 10. What changed? Not the iron type, but the shaft, not just the profile but more importantly the weight class. Isolating shaft or head to determine their "value" is near pointless. They work together, even on an Iron Byron. If engineers were to program the acceleration on one that does not match design intent of shaft the numbers will be of little use. A guy like Crossfiled would hit a blade better but a duffer might get completely contradictory numbers from same "test", In large part this is because an MB is tuned a certain way and a SGI is tuned another. Faldo reviewed 2017 Mizuno lineup long with older MS11, all with same exact shaft specs. The big dividing line came down to the spin to launch ratio. How that ratio relates to player is probably the biggest difference in GI and traditional clubs. A sweet spot that's a dime or nickel is not really major factor. If one "is all over the face" even if that is marginal, you can either get a bigger hit zone via GI or you can shrink the cluster of impact with better tune in shaft weight and profile. 45 minute fittings may find that zip code, but extensive testing truly buys the house.

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Speaking as a fitter, one of the advantages we have is that we can experiment/test during the fitting. So if a player is testing a lighter/softer shaft with a toe-biased CG head, I can see how much that's affecting their dynamic lie, if its getting too flat. If the ball-flight is still repeatable and the strike is efficient, you don't necessarily need to "fix" lie angle. If it's leaking right, or there's glancing blows due to heel strikes coupled with toe-down lie, or the toe is getting stuck in the turf, then we will go upright until those variables are balanced out.

Shaft droop and deflection are consequential measurements, but just like swingweight, you really shouldn't fit to those parameters. Like TXG says, centerness of strike is king. If we can achieve a fairly solid strike, then we focus on a consistent ball-flight, and then launch/spin optimization are the icing on top. You can't really skip any steps though. That's why devices like GCQuad still outpace GEARS in terms of fitting, at this very moment.

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You're correct about brand credibility resulting from tour use. However, IMO, today, tour use drives discussion boards such as Golfwrx, which indirectly affects consumer buying. What's talked about here after the fact, gets communicated to others. Though none of my close buddies play blades, I am often asked about equipment because friends know little to nothing. They watch me play and know I am knowledgeable about my equipment plus trust my judgment.

Unless stipulated in the contract, tour guys care only about making cuts, otherwise they eventually lose sponsors. Some are so successful if they miss a cut no biggy. Brand ambassadors like JT, AScott and WSimpson are known Titleist blade players and they miss cuts. JSpieth and IPoulter are known for GI player clubs and they miss cuts. The key is they can only miss so many cuts until the hammer comes down. Taylor Made has a similar but larger diverse stable. Yet, for all of them, regardless of equipment, a stroke difference makes the cut and a paycheck and helps to meet contract obligations which are surprisingly diverse.

Reason I give little credence to what tour guys chose to play. Tour motivation IS the cut, whereas many amateurs just want to hit some fairways and find some greens, and of course insecurities are masked. I chose to play more difficult clubs because they demand my focus which helps to overcome my dyslexia. It really comes down to a persons frame of mind and how each of us tackles golf, maybe even life.

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Despite what I previously said (a pros game and mine have no similarity at all), I will admit that it piques my interest when it comes out that a pro is playing a "hacker" club. For example, Lee Westwood playing Zing 2's for the longest time.

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With all due respect the deflection of the shaft is directly related to the force exerted on it. Therefore an object with a greater mass will cause the shaft to deflect more than an object with a smaller mass, all thing being equal. This is standard physics and the governing equations for a static or dynamic scenarios can be found at many physics or engineering websites.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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Regarding club droop, shaft flex during the downswing, etc and how it can affect one's swing performance imo for most people parameters like these will not affect their scoring results near as much as their swing. After all look at what Bobby Jones and the like had to work with and still could shoot under par. This not to say equipment can't help of course, I'm sure plenty of people can drop there scoring average at least 10-15 strokes with the good equipment, but that will probably only get them in the mid 80's on average.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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Long time blade player, tried cavity backs numerous times and struggled with them and just recently found CB's (Honma TW737) that work well throughout the bag. I've played a lot of different blades everything from 1963 Hogan IPT's to Ram FX Tour Grinds to Yonex EZone.

 

Kevin Na really isn't off base, but some things I think he's not quite accurate on.

 

Blades don't go as far as CB's. You can see this with radar data quite easily. Blades launch lower and spin more and thus don't carry as far as higher launching, lower spinning CB's.

 

I tend to think that forgiveness with irons is over-inflated by many golfers. If you want to hit quality golf shots with any iron, you have to strike the ball either on the sweetspot or close to it. Most do not understand that the sweetspot on any club is roughly the size of a needle point. Instead they think the sweetspot is the size of a dime for blades and a nickel with player CB's and a quarter with GI irons. Nope...they are all the same size and it's extremely small. The difference is the MOI around the sweetspot. But if you strike a shot towards the end of the scorelines with a CB, GI or blades, it's going to be a lousy shot. The same with thin or fat shots. If you get pretty good at the game you start to grab the concept that you're not going to save strokes by making awful strikes with your clubs...you save shots by avoiding those awful strikes altogether.

 

Furthermore, much of this is overblown these days as modern blades are far more forgiving. Even the 1963 Hogan IPT's I had weren't that unforgiving. Some of the other blades from the 70's that I have owned were very unforgiving on shots towards the toe, but even in that era those were not very popular clubs because they were poorly designed. These days the ridiciulous lack of forgiveness on shots even a hair out towards the toe just doesn't exist with modern blades.

 

But the lack of distance is real and can hurt confidence. But that also comes at the expense of distance control. That's one of the things I found interesting in the TaylorMade documentary they made about Tiger's irons. Tiger would test irons and if he is hitting his 6-iron 192 yards he said that he didn't want one shot to go longer than 192 yards. And that he could only do that with blades. With cavity backs you run the risk of the launch and spin conditions altering too much and one might go 195 yards (according to Tiger, that was completely unacceptable for him and he's arguably the greatest iron player of all time).

 

There was a study a while back that showed the same thing using mis-hits on blades vs. cb's. With blades, the direction dispersion was smaller and the distance control dispersion was better, but the shots largely missed short. With CB's the directional and distance dispersion was worse, but quite a few mis-hits went long of the target and overall the ball traveled further.

 

For me, the biggest issues I have had with CB's is the following:

 

I don't like the grinds on a lot of CB'sI tend to really struggle with the 9-iron and PW's.The ball's axis will tilt harder and there tends to be more curvature than I am comfortable with.

I have been using Honma TW737's for almost a year now. They are the first CB's I've found that have a grind that I feel comfortable with and perform well throughout the bag.

 

They have a very hot face. While they don't look likeit, they perform like a player's distance iron. At times the axis tilt of the ball will tilt harder than I like, but since I hit them so much further and can hit 2-clubs less than a blade (yeah, I know the lofts are jacked), it's not entirely that bad. Even still, I get some hankering to go back to blades and I would really like to experiment with the Tiger blades from TaylorMade.

 

To me, I think blades work best with high club head speed players that launch it low. They have the speed to not need help with distance and the more consistent launch conditions will prevent them from air-mailing greens.That's why I'm a little surprised Kevin is so anti-blade. He generates a good amount of speed (he hits it short because he hits so much down on the ball). I'm guessing that Kevin grew up in the era when Ping Eye 2+ was still strong or they were phasing out and going to the Ping Zing and then the Ping Zing 2 model. He may have grown up on Ping (or a similar model) and got comfortable with them and when he tried blades it was a completely new world that he didn't like.

 

 

 

 

 

RH

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Very good post overall.

The only nit-pick is that “MOI around the sweetspot” is not a thing. MOI cannot be isolated to the clubhead, it applies to the whole of the club because the shaft has some impact on a club’s MOI as evidenced in previous posts. Comparing the MOI of clubheads in isolation is a fools errand. Until the OEMs start publishing the data for overall MOI of combinations of their various clubheads with various shafts, picking the right clubhead and shaft combination for your game relies on nothing more than trying as many clubhead and shaft combinations until you find one that fits your game.

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You apparently misunderstood my comment. I don't believe I ever said the mass of the clubhead did not contribute or impact the amount of droop. What I tried to say is that clubhead mass isn't a clubhead performance parameter that significantly affects droop. Basically take the droop from a 90 mph swing of any 6 iron clubhead with the same shaft and it will be generally the same within a percent or so. Insignificant.

Also the same is true for CG location. Droop is proportional to the centrifugal force (pseudo) exerted at the CG location of the clubhead. The CG location can be quite different between different clubhead designs (SGI vs. blade for example). Since Fc = m * w^2 * r where Fc is centrifugal force m is clubhead mass, w is omega the angular rate, and r is the rotation radius. A large CG location difference between clubhead designs would be roughly 0.5". Let the club length be 38" for a 6 iron making r for one clubhead be 38" and 38.5" for the other. Also assume that our club swinger can swing these 6 irons at the same angular rate. Thus, since droop is proportional to Fc, then the change in droop between clubs with the same shaft, but two different clubhead designs would be about 1/76 or 1.3%. Once again I don't find that to be a significant change in droop. So design a clubhead any way you like, but if it has notionally the same mass as a normal 6 iron and the CG location is somewhere playable then the droop is going to be about the same if using the same shaft.

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  • 2 months later...

RichieH

thanks for always posting great sensible info..my MP100s are strangely accurate in distance/trajectory vs past mp60/63 cbs.This was immediately noticeable...

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Apex Pros aren’t even that big of an iron, it’s not like Kevin Na is playing a Rogue X in 4-P. His irons aren’t that far off of most modern blades today in terms of size.

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      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies
    • 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put and questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #1
      2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open - Monday #2
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Ben Taylor - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Garrick Higgo - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Billy Horschel - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Justin Lower - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Lanto Griffin - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bud Cauley - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Corbin Burnes (2021 NL Cy Young) - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Charley Hoffman - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Nico Echavarria - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Victor Perez - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sami Valimaki - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ryo Hisatsune - WITB - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Jake Knapp's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      New Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Tyler Duncan's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Greyson Sigg's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Sunjae Im's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Ping's Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Vincent Whaley's custom Cameron - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Odyssey Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Super Stroke custom grips - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Cameron putters - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Zac Blair's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
      Bettinardi Waste Management putter covers - 2024 Waste Management Phoenix Open
       
       
       
       
       
       

       
      • 12 replies

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