GHIN / Handicap Question

[Hawkeye77]

Sounds more like rounds intended to be played end up not being counted because mulligans and fluffing are the way you like to play. Taking the ball off a root? Good practice but take the penalty for heaven's sake, lol. Obviously, if you are playing for "fun" and maybe a couple of dollars and the others in the group are following the same rules for your game you probably aren't going to put yourself at a disadvantage, but you could still post the score including the proper penalty stroke, for example. Mulligans? Don't get me started, haha, but again, play the way you want and have fun.

I have no problem with how anyone wants to play, if that is how you like to play, more power to you, but don't maintain the appearance of a handicap --- your few so-called "serious" rounds aren't representative.

As for the "loosen up" in another post - with the exception of a few "gimmes" in rounds with friends because that's how they like to play every other rule of golf is followed when I play. I think that's part of the fun of it, been enjoying golf that way since I was 10 or 11. Growing up and into high school and college, except for occasionally experimenting with match play, none of the guys or gals I played with did anything other than hole out. "Gimmes" weren't a thing until I started playing with "old guys", lol, and now I'm one of the old guys, relatively speaking. Your comment that was uncalled for. Our league allows preferred lies, has for the couple of decades I've played in it. Except for a very few occasions last season when my elbow was absolutely killing me and I probably shouldn't have been out anyway, I don't "fluff" it in league, never have (except for legitimate LCP nights which maybe we've had 3 in 20+ years). Fluffing is a practice I've never understood (it's hard enough to have one attempt at a working golf swing, I don't need a swing for the teed up irons, wedges, hybrids, etc. in every fairway or in the rough), but I play with a couple of guys for whom that's normal and I could absolutely care less.

Play the way you want, but it's always interesting that folks that choose not to play by the ROG seem to want to take shots at those who do as if there is something wrong with that.

[davep043]

How would you propose that a Handicap Committee evaluate whether you chose not to post those scores because you were playing outside the rules, or whether you chose not to post those scores because you played really well and don't want your handicap to go down? And remember, the Committee is responsible to evaluate several hundred golfers at each club. That's why I suggest that a revision of the rules would be appropriate, that's why I suggest that pre-registration for posting rounds is an improvement to the current system. Otherwise, if everyone uses a different criteria to decide what to post, and what not to post, handicaps just won't be comparable.

Rules aren't really developed for those people who will choose not to play by the rules, who will play outside the rules "all the time". For those people, the "right" thing to do is to choose not to keep an official handicap.

[MelloYello]

As much as I support playing by the rules and keeping score by the ROG for simplicity's sake, I've witnessed a lot of what @jasonTeI3 is talking about. Many casual golfers casually cheat, haha. But it's not always an insideous thing. Many times this "cheating" is merely to offset a crappy area of the course that wouldn't exist at say, a fancy private club. For instance, I've seen many players move their balls 6-in to get it away from a rock or away from a bare spot in the fairway onto some actual grass. They usually remark that "I don't get clubs for free so I'm not hitting off of rocks!"
On the one hand, yes, these players should play those shots as they lie or else add (penalty) strokes to their score to account for this moving of the ball. But on the other, that would only create sand-bagging where a player was actually recording scores that were higher than he/she was capable of shooting. I'm not sure we want to encourage anything that ultimately results in a form of sand-bagging. In a club championship for instance, that same player wouldn't move his ball off that bare spot and he might hit the ball as it lay near those pebbles.
So, while I get the idea that we should all play by the rules, I understand that having a hard and fast system will occasionally be questioned. I still think we should play by the rules but I'm firmly in the camp that says we ought to decide pre-round whether or not we're legitimately playing by the ROG or we're just out there doing some on-course practice work. Given that the majority of golfers I've seen don't even know the proper ROG, it seems idealistic to try and implement such a firm approach.
It's almost as though anyone not taking it 100% seriously shouldn't even have a handicap. That's the ideal world approach, I think. You should probably have to pass a test on the ROG and sign a letter declaring you understand what cheating is before you even get issued a GHIN #. But hey, we all know that's not happening. The few who really take it seriously are in the minority.

[Newby]

"You should probably have to pass a test on the ROG"

This is the case in many European countries

[jasonTeI3]

No one is taking shots at you because you play by the rules all the time. Just like you said, play how you want to play. It seemed to me like you are making it seem like those that don’t play by all the rules all the time are somehow taking advantage of the handicap system which I believe is not true. In all honesty I score better when I’m playing in a more official setting such as our regular money games or a tournament. It’s when I’m just out hitting it around having fun that I’m putting forth little to know concentration on strategy or reading putts etc.. that I would be scoring my worst rounds. Trust me my whole point here is play the way you want but like everyone on here I believe your handicap should accurately reflect your play. When you go out for a quick 9 just to be outside and drink a few beers I don’t see how “having to post” those scores makes much sense.

[jasonTeI3]

I hear you on the “pre registering” idea. I wouldn’t be opposed to that at all. However your bottom couple sentences there are what I find condescending. Just because you go out every once in a while and hit it around just for something fun to do and don’t play by all the rules of golf, doesn’t mean you don’t also play plenty of rounds where you do. Those 2 things aren’t independent of each other. If you choose to play 100% by the rules all the time great. I don’t think anyone would ever have a problem with that. However you can not look down at someone who doesn’t take golf that seriously all the time. You think my 6 year old that I’m passing on the love of this game to would stay interested if I made him play the ball down in 5” rough?

[davep043]

My issue is with those who wish to have a functional handicap system, yet who want to be able to bend the rules to suit their personal preferences. I understand and happily accept that people play golf for fun, that people play outside the rules sometimes. But right now the handicap rules don't draw a distinction for "practice" or other informal rounds, they're all supposed to be posted. Until those rules are revised, if you choose not to post some scores, even for a moderately "innocent" reason, its fair to lump you into the group of people who choose not to post scores for a specific reason (sandbagging). To a Handicap Committee, you all look exactly the same.

As for your son, I'm happy that he's playing, I'm happy that you're not forcing him to play the ball down, that's perfectly appropriate for every beginner. However, until he's ready to play in accordance with the rules, he's similarly not ready to have an official handicap.

[Augster]

Does your son keep a handicap?

I encourage all players that keep a handicap to roll it in the fairway. Roll it in the rough. Pick up 5 footers. Don’t take the penalty stroke for a lost ball. Do all that during casual play, that’s totally your option, but make sure you post it.

All deviations (local rules) from the set forth ROG make the game easier to score. Thereby, the more local rules a player plays with, the lower their cap will be over time. This will keep their cap artificially low, and when they play a handicapped event that requires them to play it down and play by all the ROG, they are at a significant disadvantage.

I don’t have that disadvantage. When I play I play straight ROG. Play it down, putt it out. This way my cap is correct at all times. And I never have to “justify” the way I play. I’m at a golf course. I play the game of golf by the rules of golf. As does everyone I play with.

Maybe that makes the guys in my men’s club odd. IDK. I do know there is money on the line every single time I’m out there with any of them, so the rules do need to be followed to quell arguments.

[MelloYello]

I agree with @davep043 and @Augster that if we want to have a functional system, we must commit ourselves to playing by the rules.
What's funny in all of this is that we all use the Handicap system for our own personal reasons. An elite player might use it to gauge their professional potential or to quickly separate who's good (+) from those that aren't (-). Some use it to balance matches among their friends. And others use it as a means to quantify their own improvement over time.
But in reality, any match that factors in Handicap isn't a very serious match. You'd obviously never play a Club Championship giving people strokes. The Club Champion ain't going to be some 15-handicap! The irony of treating the ROG and the Handicap system like gospel is that at the end of the day it's all for beers, bragging rights and a couple dollars among players who (by comparison with the Club Champ) are far from being an elite player.
So as fun as it is to be all high and mighty about the ROG and the Handicap system, I think we should all keep in mind that the very fact we worry about Handicap at all indicates we're not above receiving strokes from a better player, which is in and of itself, a humbling reality.
So for me, my handicap is more about quantitatively measuring my game and my improvement over time. The fact that some 20-handicap hack might beat me in a scramble...well...that just goes to show that playing in such a scramble ain't about winning as much as the experience of having a little competition and having fun with friends.

[lchang]

Can't net competitions be super serious, too? (They certainly can be for money that is significant to the competitors!)

[SNIPERBBB]

I really don't get the obstinance on practice round posting. You want to prevent sandbagging, fine. Don't let anyone post via internet or even be able to post scores on the course computer. Sandbaggers inlate their scores, or just flat post scores that never happened. Nobody ever complains vanity caps outside of state/usga am qualifiers or their stuck with em as a partner in a net competition, or gross that's out of their league.

 

So you want someone playing to a low singles in all competitions, goofing around on the course shooting 4+ above their index after ESC/NDB in practice . Well you better hope they play more competition rounds than they play casual rounds. You may as well hand out the prize money to those guys and skip playing. That's why I like the euro model of only keeping competition scores for handicapping. The handicap system has to assume players are trying to shoot the lowest scores possible.

Nobody cares if you make Bob's vanity 3 cap go to an 11 after finishing next to last because he didn't count his Mulligan's from his after work practice rounds . They will care if you go after Billy Sue that shot even as a 12 because he posted a bunch of 36 hole days in Florida over the winter and more than half of those never happened or Ron's -2 off 10 because he never wins a hole by more than a stroke in league no matter how many snowmen his opponent had.

[davep043]

I've said it before, I'd endorse a move towards the European system, counting competition and pre-registered casual rounds. That system allows for practice rounds. However, that's not what we have under the USGA requirement. As it is, a Handicap Committee is typically going to compare tee sheets against posting records, expecting to see a score every time someone plays. If they have to check out each and every time someone doesn't post a score, it increases the difficulty of an already-difficult job. So as long as we have the system we do, I'll continue to tell people that they're pretty much required to post their score every time they play, subject to the limitations in the rules.

[nsxguy]

3) Handicaps are so golfers or disparate ability can play a fair game.

d) I may not have believed it but I've heard some Club Championships ARE net.

1) Plenty of serious matches are played giving strokes

and

B) a 20 handicap might beat you in a scramble ? Sheesh

6) Have fun.

[dubbelbogey]

Practice rounds are just that. Practice. Not official, by definition.

I go and play with 16 clubs because I'm testing. I drop multiple balls to try different things. I'll intentionally move balls from the fairway into the rough, or into a divot to practice those shots. I'll manufacture a fried egg lie in the bunker. I'll putt to a leaf instead of the hole, or I'll take 5 practice putts. No earthly way can doing any of that stuff be considered either 1) playing under the RoG or 2) cheating. It's practice, which just so happens to be occurring on the actual course in a way that simulates regular play. It's actually the best way to practice, by far. But it cannot and should not be posted.

 

 

 

[davep043]

 

I'm assuming you're in the USGA area, please let me know if I'm wrong. Make another assumption, you're on your club's Handicap Committee. You're going to review posting habits, simply verifying that each member has posted the appropriate number of scores in a specific time frame. How do you know which rounds were "practice", and which were required to be posted? How can you tell which guys are choosing not to post because the score was too low, and who was legitimately practicing? I'm saying you're wrong, I'm just pointing out that there are other considerations. And this is a good reason to encourage the USGA to further revise the posting requirements in the next generation of handicap rules.

[Augster]

Are you doing this in a GROUP? Or are you by yourself?

If you’re by yourself you can’t post the score anyway. Practice as much as you’d like.

If you’re doing all that nonsense in a group, I feel bad for the other guys in the group.

[Hawkeye77]

Come on man, the only person who was taking shots was you. And I don't play by the rules 100% of the time - clear in my post.

Maybe I was reading too much into your other posts, but it doesn't seem like it. You want to sort out in a subjective way those rounds where you don't play to whatever standard and take whatever liberties, which isn't what the point of maintaining a handicap is about. So do that and have fun, but it just doesn't play as an argument about keeping some "real" handicap.

You should introduce your son to the game however you want.

But both of my girls, now grown, who play golf to two completely different standards (but enjoy it), learned to play the ball down from day one - I like that the idea of "fluffing" a ball or moving a ball to avoid a root but not accounting for the (OMG) one stroke penalty is pretty much completely foreign to them.

An intent to play the ball down and an intent to post all scores is a better philosophy, IMO, even if you don't get there 100%, than the other way around.

[dubbelbogey]

Look - I never hold up play. Sometimes it's with my son (my most common playing partner) and if it's just the two of us, we can take more liberties. If I'm in a foursome, I'm super cognizant not to hold anyone up. I'm typically the fastest in most of my groups, by far. It's not like I do all of those things in every practice round. It might just be two or three holes. Certainly carrying a few extra clubs has zero effect on anyone else except me, since I'm the one carrying the clubs. If there's even a remote chance I'm might end up being the slowest in a group on a particular hole when doing a practice round, I quietly pick up and wait for the group to complete. When I'm doing this with strangers who don't know me, it's all very subtle and I'd bet 99.9% of the time they don't even know what's going on and can't tell I'm doing anything different. Give me a little credit for understanding that the primary responsibility for me as a golfing partner is to not negatively affect the enjoyment of the round of others.

 

[dubbelbogey]

I agree 100% the USGA should be more clear on this, but I look at it like this: The system really is based on integrity and trust. There's already so much left to judgement and the honesty of the golfer anyway, this is no different. Until you change it to be competition-only based, or only allow other players to keep and post your scores and (basically disallow self posting of scores) this doesn't go away. You'll have those that manipulate the system and those that do not. Simply saying that all rounds must be posted because that ensures the integrity, to me, is losing the forest for the trees. If one wants to cheat, there's much simpler, less detectable ways to do so.

Frankly, there's a practical matter - I'm not even sure what one would score on such practice rounds. The whole round was illegitimate from the perspective of RoG. If the one somehow attempted to have the RoG "forced" onto the round, I think the only legitimate way to score the round would be a DQ.

 

[SkiSchoolPro]

Its my understanding that you only post when you follow the rules and play with another player...this includes NOT using a range finder with slope. So, if you go out when the course is not crowded & play 2 balls, use a slope range finder, play solo, put 15+ clubs in your bag, etc. you shouldn't post...lots of situations where the HC committee might see your name on the tee sheet, but not see a posted score.

[dubbelbogey]

OK - my bad.

I should've just read the actual rules more closely.

USGA Rulebook does cover this quite specifically:2.1(b) Played by the Rules of GolfA round must be played by the Rules of Golf to be acceptable for handicap purposes, subject to the following:(ii)General Play. When an organized competition is not being contested, a score is not acceptable for handicap purposes if the player:Breaches the Rules of Golf and the correct penalty is not applied under the Rules of Golf, orDeliberately ignores a Rule of Golf.

In my practice rounds, I'm deliberately ignoring the RoG, therefore cannot be posted. Not much left to interpret here. For what I'm doing, case closed.

 

 

 

[Pepperturbo]

People jabber here about idealistic expectations, when the rest of the golfing world plays golf and gets around having our panties in a wad over something none of us can control. You can't change people and they are not perfect, though many posters expect the world to be perfect someday. LOL I agree with @SNIPERBBB - stop letting people post on their own, where ever.
At better private clubs least those I was a member of (tournament cultures) sandbaggers are much less prevalent because each member trades cards with a playing partner and got his signature on the card walking off 18. I liked that too. At the end of the round we turned in our cards to the pro. He later reviewed them then posted each score for that days golfers. Additional benefit is Pros, having seen the games of many members knew when a card was off and would question the member. Today, we have used technology to advance the ease of posting, with hopes people demonstrate integrity; ya, right, good luck with that suck egg wish. So we cope with the result. I post all my rounds.
I also agree with @Hawkeye77 - there are times when I move the ball away from hitting a root or anything that may damage my purr-dee 620MBs. May move the ball out of a trench that should be marked hazard yet isn't. Seems courses have gotten quite lazy about daily hazard marking, leaving when to move the ball up to the golfer. Do I bother worrying about that, nope. Anyhow, even after fudging at times, in a game or tournament I play the ball as it lies and that's all my opponents have to worry about.

[Hawkeye77]

I'll take the penalty on the root (not claiming any moral high ground though), but totally agree on the need sometimes for "on the course committee" to make judgments about things like GUR where course, for example, is clearly working on something and won't be bothered to mark it. Heck we had a 5 foot deep and 4 foot wide trench awaiting tile repair all last year that could occasionally come into play in between two different holes - not even a fence to prevent carts from taking a dive. Common sense, IMO, can prevail.