Jump to content

Help! I can’t shallow the club.


Recommended Posts

I’ll start by saying that I haven’t had any formal lessons in years. Don’t really have the time to go take any. Hoping someone here can help.

Since I’ve become a weekend warrior, I’ve developed a steep downswing going into impact and I can’t seem to shallow the club out. Also seems that at impact I have early extension. I’m practicing a lot more now, and want to get rid of this bad habit. I’ve attached some photos of my downswing. I was purposely trying to feel like I was “laying off” on the way down, but the club is still “above my right arm” on the way down (if that makes sense).

Anyone got any ideas? And before anyone says anything like “swing your swing”, I get it. When I’m playing well, I’m scoring well (duh). When my timing is off (past 4 rounds), I’m a hack.

5173559f-50cc-484d-af8a-ed559a2ab7a4.png

a1ae20d5-9527-4f53-b5a0-8b89eba0480d.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 20
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Your hands don’t have enough room to work through impact so you have to come in steep. Gotta get the left hip back more through impact. Pretend there’s a wall or stick an alignment rod about 2-3 inches behind your left cheek at setup position. Then try to hit the wall or stick with your left hip through impact. Gravity and momentum will shallow the club for you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stills don’t say near enough. No context. Doesn’t show root cause.

 

down the line and face on if you want a helpful answer.

All "tips" are welcome. Instruction not desired. 
 

 

The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

BERTRAND RUSSELL

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My brother paid a pga teaching pro well all he ever told him was to "shallow" the club. He never told him how. Then another pro told him to stay "behind the ball" too, but again he didn't tell him how. There are a lot of people out there, including even good golfers, that seem to think getting the club into a good position at impact requires all types of complicated moves that leaves one thinking if they have to be a gymnast or something.

Actually, it shouldn't be so hard, and it isn't, there are a lot of kids that can do a decent and efficient swing without a lot of teaching. I would look at Manuel de La Torres videos about being relaxed and swinging the club. That and learning a proper setup(a lot of players set up with a braced right leg, etc.) and takeaway sequence(hands, arms, shoulders is easier) and then stay loose and let it fly. Just remember the golf swing is still mostly art and not science in spite of what you may hear. If it were science then everyone who applied "the correct swing procedure" would have success no exceptions, but we know that's not the case.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hear this but it disregards the fact that some people, for whatever reason, just swing the club "wrong" from the start. Like me for instance. I started golf in my early teens, no instruction until my 40s, and my swing had nearly every fault possible. Now, that is just because I am not athletic in a coordination sense as some but I do get a little frustrated with people who say it should be natural, etc. That's just not reality for some people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had the same issue way back, this is what changed it for me, supination, i actually start mine before i reach the top of my back swing, allows me to shallow and really get after it

Taylormade Stealth Plus Mitsu Kai'li White 70S
Taylormade SIM2 15  Tour AD DI 8S
Mizuno MP 20 3-PW ProjectX 6.0
Vokey SM7 54S and 60M
Cameron Newport 2 CT
Titleist ProV1x Left dash

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Supination made my body realize that I wasn’t going to be able to square the face unless I rotated to get my hands forward and get off the back foot, so it worked for me

Taylormade Stealth Plus Mitsu Kai'li White 70S
Taylormade SIM2 15  Tour AD DI 8S
Mizuno MP 20 3-PW ProjectX 6.0
Vokey SM7 54S and 60M
Cameron Newport 2 CT
Titleist ProV1x Left dash

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't mean to imply the golf swing was natural for most people, in fact I added the point about kids with "little instruction" and also technical details about the swing.

Nonetheless, to clarify, I don't believe everything in the golf swing is natural, only that with the proper setup and takeaway sequence the downswing should feel natural and easy without any manipulation nor contortions, as many, even "good" teaching pros would tell us. I think most golfers if having played enough can remember a round of golf or day at the range where everything they hit was relatively straight, long and with little effort, no contortions needed to include the "shallowing the club". This is evidence that just about anyone can do a repeatable and effortless golf swing. However, lack of understanding of the golf swing leads to frustration and tension, which will detroy the grip and thus the swing. This is why I like Manuel de La Torres attitude of freely swinging the club because it reduces tension. However, I am more a stickler of details because I like you have a problem in "finding" my swing, so I have been trying different setup and takeaway scenarios. I prefer Ben Hogan's braced right leg setup and left hand turning in(followed by the shoulder obviously) to start the swing but from there I try to keep my focus on the ball instead of worrying what my hands are doing and swing the club as MDLT would say. Actually, I think about swing the shaft instead of the club because it adds a linear component to the takeaway that gives my backswing direction.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for detailed response. As you can see, this is a touchy subject for me, haha. To your point, before instruction, I had no idea how bad my swing looked but I could play a round of golf and score reasonably well. I have to disagree on something else though. I've had instruction from some well known instructors and my set up and takeaway are very nice. It's when my downswing starts that everything goes awry, so even a solid set up and backswing doesn't ensure success.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand completely. I have played rounds with many people that had very conventional looking backswings in person but rarely hit with power or precision. This is because the golf swing is more than just about the postion of the club, it is about the correct biomechanics as well. Many golfers can get to the top and everything looks good, but it's difficult to see if they have loaded the lower body correctly and also with which muscles they are gripping the club. This is where MLDT's swing concept comes in, one needs to feel the club which with the "positional" aspects of the takeaway and backswing will help one "find" the swing they always had. In summary, if one has to contort to hit the ball (shallow the clubhead) with force on the inside they've done something wrong. As evidence of this watch the LPGA tour and see how well many of these small ladies hit the ball. I expect they could do no more than 10 pushups and 3 pullups for lack of arms strength nor much less a squat with their bodyweight and yet the hit the ball better than both of us, haha.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Amazing how much this tip helped during a range session over lunch today. What's crazy is how it feels like I'm making a majorly different move, but on video, it's only minutely different. Even what amounts to a slight change still can make a world of difference though. I felt compression I haven't felt in a long time, my misses were a little thin instead of laying the sod over from being steep. Great tip. Just need to keep working on it to eventually get the club in position to where it needs to be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your arms/hands are outpacing your turn. When your hips return to facing the ball, your left arm should still be parallel to the ground. Look at p5 of any good ball striker.

As you start your transition, leave your hands high and just move your right elbow forward with your hips. Of course you need a good backswing and get deep enough with your hands at the top to set up for this transition move.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm in trouble now with this. Well, it's just now starting to cause me problems actually. I had a top teacher lend me 10 minutes of his time and put me on video. I almost lost my mind when he showed it to me. He split screened me next to a PGA Tour guy for a visual of how I should proceed. Sadly I'm in the "flip it" category until I rid this steep mess. I've been a "good timing" player my who life. Almost 43 and my timing is off just enough with the driver to get in my head. I asked about why my iron play hasn't suffered....turf interaction was the answer. Might have to hit 3 woods off the deck for a while until I figure my flip out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't count how many times I heard teaching "pros" say some pga pro "flips" it through impact negatively, often times while the player is winning the tournament, to include DJ Johnson, Tony Finau, etc. In fact I have heard this so much in the last 25 years that I'm starting to believe "flipping it" is the real secret to a repeating effortless swing.

If you want a less steep swing a common solution is to keep your hands lower on the takeaway so your right side loads up better.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just paid $45 to performancegolfzone to access Eric Cogornos 'Magic Move' which is how to shallow the club.

I won't do it justice but to summarise the main points;ADDRESS

Club square at address

Grip neutral

In the takeaway the club face is pointing slightly down at parallel ie not toe up

Lead wrist flat at the top of the backswing rather than cuppedBACKSWING

Too flat a backswing = over the top downswing

Don't over roll the arms in the backswing

At the top the shaft is more vertical and the logo on the glove is not pointing to the sky, more forward or at 45 degreesDOWNSWING

Having a 'flying elbow' means the trail shoulder is internally rotated so a bigger move is needed to externally rotate the shoulder. The bigger move is easier to make.

If the trail elbow is pointing down then the trail shoulder is already externally rotated so need to keep it like that in the downswing or increase it.FEELS

The club head works behind you

Lead wrist is flexed not cupped on the way down

Pulling the arms down steepens the shaft

Leave the arms where they are and open the body to shallow the club.

MY EXPERIENCE

The video is good because it isn't just instructional but is educational in the sense that it gives you information which helps you self diagnose.

What I got out of it was I was too flat at the top and my trail elbow was too 'tucked in'.

Once I stood the club up more and allowed the trail elbow to move further from my side (not the full JN flying elbow) it gave me more room to shallow the club.

Having the elbow further away gave me a positive move to make.

It made me think of Harvey Pennicks Magic Move - 'To start your backswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body'.

However the 'down' is more diagonally down and out.

The face seems to want to square itself as well.

 

All comments are made from the point of
view of my learning and not a claim
to expertise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Our picks

    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 7 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

×
×
  • Create New...