Ruling Help, 3 day Stableford

[cardoustie]

So our interclub qualifying started on Wednesday. It's 3 days with the best 2 days of the 3 determining which 4 players join the Captain and Pro to make a 6 some (3 two man teams)

Anyways, Round 1

Older gent caught multiple times marking way closer to hole. FLAGRANT. We are talking turning 4 footers into 18" putts. Well known cheater and sandbagger FWIW

So the guys in his group report him and the shop gives him 2 holes where he gets a 2 stroke penalty. Basically rendering him zero points on just 2 holes

(Our system is 0, 1 bogey, 2 par, 3 birdie, 4 eagle and 5 albatross, 6 double albatross (which happened once)

Is this correct? I would think at best his whole round is tossed but really he should be tossed from the whole event

Ideas anyone?

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[Sawgrass]

It seems to me that this player should have been disqualified (at least for the one potentially-superfluous round), and according to 1.2a could not get any penalty other than DQ unless a specific penalty for such conduct was defined in advance. So the 2 stroke thing is likely bogus.

 

I am unfamiliar with any rule which would address DQing a player from a round that might be scratched anyway, vs. complete DQ, so we have to go to 20.3 and see that a judgement must be made based on similar rules. While the following is subjective and only my opinion, it seems to me that the intention of the DQ described in 1.2a is to throw the jerk out of the entire tournament, and that’s what I think should be done if his described behavior was ruled to be intentional.

 

I too am curious as to what others think or have experienced.

[Mr. Bean]

So.... the other players in his group said nothing at the time they saw him marking his ball in a wrong place..? None of the times?

Something does not add up here.

[cardoustie]

thanks Sawgrass

not sure what level of rules expert you are .. but that was my thought. It is flagrant cheating and goes against the spirit of the game and competition so how is he not tossed out

 

[cardoustie]

no they called him on it

 

EDIT TO ADD ..... and made him move his mark backwards to where it should be

[Mr. Bean]

So what is the problem? They called him on it and he marked his ball on the right spot. Or did he not?

[cardoustie]

they called him on it twice where they saw it happen while they were ON THE GREEN with him which is why is was applied 2 strokes x 2 holes

This gent races ahead to the green, throws no mark down, picks up ball with marking by putter head and then 1 or 2 steps toward target (seen from fairway)

[cardoustie]

Mr Bean

if you catch a player intentionally marking well ahead of his ball and he then replaces it, are you telling me that is not a penalty?

[Mr. Bean]

So he was twice called on but he did not correct his error, is that it? How did the guys let him do that??

Most peculiar. Anyway, DQ is the only correct ruling by R 1.2a.

[cardoustie]

he was forced to correct his error, the two times the marking was witnessed on the greenhe got away with the rest of the monkey business when he routinely beat players to the green (he's a short knocker)Look, as a former captain, I don't think as a club you want this type of player at events

[SNIPERBBB]

I would call that a serious and flagrant misconduct breach, especially in light of the purpose of the tournament.

 

There is some prestige in getting on your intraclub team so I can see why some would try such thing to get on the team. But what does the guy think will happen if he got on the team and gets called on those shenanigans I'm the first hole of the match? I'd rather miss the cut than get potentially 9&8'd because you had to cheat your way onto the team.

[Mr. Bean]

What puzzles me here as I was not present is that this person was forced to correct two 'errors' when all or most of the group was on the green with him when he did his thing but not on those other instances when he was on the green by himself. So my question is why did the others not make him correct those other 'errors' as well?

I am not defending the acts of the person in question but trying to understand why they wanted to punish him afterwards for acts they witnessed but did not react upon and especially for those two he did correct. The way I see it there was no breach on those two occasions as he corrected his error.

[Mr. Bean]

Well, you could argue he lifted his ball without marking it so it would be 1 stroke penalty but I am not quite sure if even that would be the correct ruling. After all, he does mark the ball but to a wrong place. What he certainly does not do is playing from wrong place as he replaced his ball before playing it.

[Sawgrass]

Here’s the part of 1.2a I referred to above.

 

IMO being caught and convicted of simply repeatedly TRYING to cheat is sufficient to be DQ, because it is not "acting with integrity." I don't think you have to actually "get away with it."

 

a. Conduct Expected of All PlayersAll players are expected to play in the spirit of the game by:

Acting with integrity – for example, by following the Rules, applying all penalties, and being honest in all aspects of play.

[sui generis]

Sawgrass has a certificate from the USGA which confirms his status as "Expert" in the Rules of Golf.

[Sawgrass]

Is it slightly amusing that the “level of rules expert” I am is “Expert?”

Probably not.

[ArtMBgolf]

What is a double Albatross? Albatross with a stroke or Ace on a par 5?

 

I think the guy should be DQ'd, per the cheating rules, especially since he would be representing the club.

A zero on holes he got caught might be OK in a routine men's club show up and play.

I don't think Stapleford identifies your best golfers, due to 0 for a bad hole and no bonus for birdie and better.

[cardoustie]

An eleven cap made an albatross on the eleventh stroke hole. 2 net 1. 4 under

[nsxguy]

I don't think Stableford identifies your best golfers, due to 0 for a bad hole and no bonus for birdie and better.

Forget any bonus for "birdie or better" but you're certainly right about a Stableford and throwing out blowup holes. Ridiculous.

[SNIPERBBB]

In match play, blowup holes don't kill you. All you do is lose one hole. You just cant have too many of them or you've dug yourself a hole that you need to go on a birdie spree or your opponent starts digging alongside you.

[cardoustie]

The event is three 2 man teams playing net stableford, add up the 3 scores

this is why the qualifying is this format

1 gross player and 3 stableford’s make the team to join captain and head pro

 

[Mr. Bean]

'1 gross player and 3 stableford’s make the team to join captain and head pro'

I do not understand. Would you pls explain?

[James the Hogan Fan]

I believe he means that there is an interclub team with 4 available spots to play alongside captain and club pro and that this tournament awards a spot to the best gross/no hcp/scratch scorer, and 3 spots to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in the simultaneous stableford competition. I do wonder if it is maximum score stroke play...

[Mr. Bean]

Still not sure if get it. There are four (4) players joining the captain and the pro. Now they are six (6). Is that then a team and each team member plays in a separate group against members of other teams?

[Hawkeye77]

If I’m understanding, the guy is a member at your club trying to make your club’s team?

I would figure out whatever procedure or procedures the club or Committee or any governing body could take to simply ban him from participation, period, for his flagrant cheating and lack of sportsmanship. Suspend him for a year from any club events, has to be a way. If not, adopt one!

[cardoustie]

Round 2 was yesterday

This guy is now leading the stableford part of the qualifying comp

I am leading the gross portion of the qualifying FWIW

we have 40 clubs here ... 10 pods compete against 3 other clubs over 2 days. The 10 winners all meet in the finals

the format of the playoffs and finals are 3 two man teams. Net better ball but not net score, stableford points

 

so on hole 1, if no strokes are allocated and I make a par and my -partner makes a birdie, then we get 3 points on that hole

Generally you want each twosome to get 40 points per 18 and then you have 120pts per day and ideally 240 over the two day final

You can make a zillion on a hole as there is no negative for worse than net double bogey

Don’t ask why there is a gross qualifier ... as gross is no part of the Interclub comps. I think it is a way to get some low caps on the team

I can tell you that the best clubs have 3 players with caps 0-5 (the pro is a 0) .. and 3 players between 11 and 17. Pair a low with a high guy in all 3 cases

[2bGood]

The story does not really add up as this is what I hear: Guys SUSPECT he is marking is ball in way to make it closer to the hole. They see him do it and call it on him, he remarks in the 'correct' place. After being called out twice he now races up to the green so he can do it without being monitored and the guys but the guys can still see him doing it. However the guys don't call him on this or ask him to stop going ahead?

I have sat on many tournament committees, served as club captain and dealt with many rulings over the years. One thing I have found is the story about cheating the guys tell in the mens lounge over beers differs greatly from the story they go on record with when making a complaint. I suspect the only thing put on record for the pro to make the ruling is the player incorrectly marked his ball twice and corrected it.

 

 

[Shilgy]

The way I see it there was no breach on those two occasions as he corrected his error.

 

It is allowed to repeatedly mismark your ball position on the green attempting to cheat if your playing partners call you on it and you move it back? It most certainly was not an “error” on his part. Unless you call playing the ace up your sleeve an error in your part of the world?

[Mr. Bean]

I guess you should have read all the posts before commenting this particular one.

OP has suggested that the player in question (let us call him Chuck) corrected his error twice when required but still the other players wanted him to be penalized with 2 strokes per each breach. IMHO that is not correct as he did not play from a wrong place. As I wrote before one may argue that he was in breach of R14.1 for not marking his ball before lifting it but even in that case the penalty would be 1 stroke, not 2. In my comment above I was referring to that proposed 2 stroke penalty, so obviously I should have been more clear in my writing.

Furthermore, cheating as well as attempts to cheat are covered by R1.2a as already stated by many posters, so it is sheer semantics whether Chuck should be penalized for not marking his ball to the spot before lifting as he should be disqualified for a blatant breach of R1.2a.

So the bottom line here is the term penalty. Disqualification is a penalty as well as is a one stroke penalty. It seems the concept of penalty might have been misconstrued in this thread which is perfectly understandable.

[Sawgrass]

IMO the important fact issue here is whether the guy was found guilty of deliberately cheating, or sloppily playing from the wrong place, or neither. I thought the OP said cheating.