who has actually played with a legit scratch golfer/pro level player?

[golfho50]

Sure....Living in South Florida. Played with a current PGA Tour player, a couple of former PGA tour players, Former Euro Tour player, Various Florida Tour Players, NCAA SEC Players. It is quite a show to watch great golfers play and the ease in which they can dominate a course and shoot in the 60's. The current PGA Tour player is a top 10-15 last 3 years in driving distance and i could not follow his tee shots with my 20/50 vision in my right eye. Had to laugh when we arrived to his ball on or very close to green on several par 4's and this was from 7100 yards with 30 MPH wind course across street from ocean (North Palm Beach).

First time i played with a former PGA Tour player every iron shot he hit the first 2-3 holes all i could say was "great shot" finally he gave me this look and then i realized to him it was not a "great shot" but a miss for him. We had a good time but i realized there are so many levels to this game. Also i find i don't play so well (other than when i am playing with a Senior former PGA Tour players and its just me and him head to head and we know each other) because i am busy watching their shots and trying to learn as much as i can from them, their routines and how they play.

[zwiggyz]

One of my buddies is a +1.6 and I'm a 3.7. While I can hit the ball almost on par with him (he's driving the ball around 310-320 in mid 60 degree temps), his short game is absolutely ridiculous. The guys who are scratch/+ caps are able to get up & down from almost anywhere and will never take worse than a bogey. They'll also stick their wedges to easy birdie putts when they get the chance.

I recall there was a round we played last year where it seemed that he hit maybe 3/14 fairways and was definitely under 50% for GIR but still shot even par from the tips at our club. It was the hardest working par I'd ever seen in my life.

[Warrick]

No pro , but was a member at a small club in Iowa with a guy that won amateur of the year, maybe a couple times.

i played with him one day at our little club, 32/29, tidy little 61.

[RetiredCartBoy]

Years ago I used to play a few times a week with a buddy who was a +0.4. He played what could best be described as boring golf. This was close to 20 years ago so distances were a bit different, but he averaged about 250 off the tee, and carried his 7-iron about 150. He just didn't miss very much, and when he did, he missed in places he could easily recover from. He never saw the woods, and he almost never short-sided himself. I remember the first time we played I would have guessed that he shot in the low 80's instead of the low 70's since I couldn't really remember anything "special" that he did.

I once played a practice round with some guys who were going to try and Monday qualify for the buy.com (now Korn Ferry) tour event, and they were on a completely different level from my friend. I was a 6 at the time, and the gap between me and him was much smaller than the gap between him and these pros who weren't even at AAA level yet. The level of control they had over the ball was just astounding.

[bubbagump]

Still one of my most vivid memories of being in awe on the golf course.

Used to work at a nice local muni during hs and college, and were within like 10 miles of a RTJ course that has held PGA Tour events and the Presidents Cup. I remember one day after lunch we were informed the bros who were regular caddies at RTJ were coming through our place to get a round in. These 4 early 20s dudes showed up with man buns, beards and looking like a bunch you'd rather drink on the beach with then play golf. I stopped my work cart to watch because i was memorized, they went right to the tips and pulled irons to tee off with on a long par 4 one didnt even have shoes on yet........Complete smoke show stingers. The sound of the compression, the rocket flight pattern, the distance it was amazing lol to the point my 16 year old brain could hardly comprehend. I randomly drove by through the round and each shot I saw was knocking a pin down or a long bomb. I had to keep driving off before I lost my composure lol and didn't want to just follow them then entire 18.

They were studs, and came in the clubhouse possibly at a .2 BAC and all broke par but 1 who shot a +1.

[bub72ck]

My handicap hovers around 0 to +1 so I can get it around pretty well. I have played a lot of golf over the years with good players and the characteristics are much the same. Also, a friend of mine is a current PGA Tour player. To watch him play is so different from me or anybody else I know. We don't play the same golf course.

As you start to break down statistics over the course of a round or rounds, it becomes very obvious that the tour guys are so much better than I am as a scratch player. Even small increases in statistical categories make a huge difference over the course of a season. An increase in fairways leads to an increase in GIR. A 10% improvement in proximity to the hole leads to fewer putts and more birdies and par saves. All of those things lead to better good rounds as well as better bad rounds. That's more cuts made for tour guys and more money in the pocket.

[driveandputtmachine]

Former college player and gave it a run on the mini, mini tours with obviously no luck. Low as a +3.2 in college and right after. Last three years for me have been +1.8 to 4.5 (wrist surgery) So I have played with many in groups 1 - 3, not sure I could even put an actual number on it. Played with a decent amount of the 4-5 realm, roughly 15-20. Played with 6/7 in the 6, and 1 or 2 in the 7.

I view the uppers like this in the US currently, having either played with or in many of these rankings. For awhile Tiger was in his own level above top PGA guys during his prime

Scratch club players (players at your club with a vanity + to a one handicap) They play 4-5 holes like a world beater, but have too many doubles each round and don't turn in their bad scores.Scratch club guys (players at your club with a legitimate + to a one handicap if they do not play in state wide events) Most of them blow up in those events, unless they have previously been a higher ranking.Scratch state amateur guys (Div 2 and lower as well)Scratch nationwide amateur guys (Div 1 college guys) and mini, mini tour guysMini tour guys and bottom end Nike/KF guysTop end Nike/KF guys and bottom end PGA Tour guysMiddle PGA guysTop PGA Guys (Ryder/President Cup folks, Say top 15 players)Is this list scientific? Hell no. Having played with a lot of these and having been all the way to a 3, and a couple of events as a 4, I have a pretty good idea of what separates them generally, and can tell after 5-6 holes where the supposed scratch player I am playing with fits.

The three biggest differences (in general) as you move up the list are

how much better their bad shots becomehow much better their scrambling (ability to save pars when hitting it bad) becomes. How much better their proximity to the hole and GIR becomes. I hit just as many, or close enough for it to not matter, perfect shots per round as any of them. Tiger himself and Jack both have said they hit maybe 3-4 perfect shots per round, the higher your number the better your great, very good, good, ok, bad, very bad shots become,

[Rapatt95]

Playing in Pa, a lot of our courses are basically cut out of a mountain in the middle of the woods. I’ve met several who have it in the bag in the off chance of a bear or bobcat

[DangerousDan]

Yup this is true for a good number of scratch and better players. I am a scratch golfer, but that doesn't mean I never shoot over par, never make more than bogey and get everything up and down. I will shoot 65 one day and 76 the next day. Recovery shots and managing the course play a decent role in this.

On the flip side of that, 2 of the best Amateurs in my state are kind of as originally described in this thread. The two guys I am thinking of both seem to hit every fairway (they are not long, but long enough) are fantastic putters, and rarely miss a "standard" up and down.

There are a bunch of different "types" of scratch golfers out there.

[WhatWouldPhilDo]

Played with a guy who is a + and played for a while on old Hooters Tour. He has kids now and never practices and yet routinely destroys in every tournament vs other “+ Handicaps”. The way he hits it, the shots he thinks are no brainer shots, etc makes it clear that we are just playing different games. When I hit it on, I’m happy. He hits it on, I say nice shot, and if it’s not within 5ft, he isn’t happy. When he is on, he is so fun to watch and play with. When he is “off”, I don’t want to play with him. His expectations are far different than mine. Seems like he breaks his own course record every year. And not to mention, if he is playing in your charity golf event, he is stacking their team. I’ve seen his group shoot an honest 18 under in a scramble Without string..

[wcgolfer]

I’ve played with a guy who couldn’t cut it on a Mini Tour but is still the greatest player I’ve done a round with. I mean, it was hard for me to even imagine how someone could be that much better than, but he wasn’t even close to making it on a mini tour.

[GTR206]

My ex played D1 golf, plays on mini tour and even qualified for the US Women's Open. I play to around an 8 and it really felt like we were playing two different courses lol. We always had fun though.

[DNice26]

Played with an Ex Web.com player last week. I’m a low single digit cap and his swing was one of the best I’ve seen. He only scored maybe 3 strokes better but I could tell he was a bit rusty. His entire game was very solid. His swing impressed me the most. I watch quite a bit of golf and have been playing for quite some time and the quality of his motion was super solid.

[ForgedOrGetOut]

You have to remember that a 0 handicap does not mean that they average 72. Handicap is not an average of your score -- at least not the official USGA handicap; handicap is more a measure of potential and must be adjusted for each course and set of tees. So, with that, I have played with many scratch/0 handicaps and they usually shoot 70-74. I have also played with a few +2s who were middle aged. They were in great shape for their 50s, but played slightly shorter tees due to their age even though they still drove it 270-290. When I played competitive golf in middle and high school I played with a few guys who would shoot single digits over par for 3 rounds and I think those are really the players you are referring to. It is a lot harder to go out and shoot 72-71-75 in tournament play than to have a 0 handicap. I myself am a higher single digit handicap. The course I play is par 72 with rating 70.3/130.0 and 6,100 yards from second furthest tees. I often go out and casually shoot mid 70s. If I go to a totally new course that plays closer to 7,000 yards I will shoot around 80. When I tell people, "oh yeah nothing crazy, I just shot 74, 78 this weekend" they think I should be playing in college or something of that nature. It is not hard to shoot low if you understand your game, the course, and manage yourself well. If I want to shoot well, I play boring golf. I hit whatever club will put me in the fairway, I aim for the middle of the green if it is protected by bunkers/hazard, I rarely hit more than a 4 iron into a green, and I avoid double bogeys at all costs. They best I ever shot in tournament play was 75-76 for a second place finish and I promise those were not exciting rounds to watch. I simply made birdies putting, went for par 5s in two, and hit the green on par 3s.

[jeffreyl]

Over the years have played with D1 players with + handicaps that won D1 tournaments, (couldn’t make the Pro tour).

Played many times with an LPGA pro that won LPGA tournaments and had to retire, due to injury.

Played with “scratch” players.

Played with Vaughn Taylor in a Pro-Am.

The Pros’ ball striking and short games were amazing to watch. (make it look, so easy!)

The D1 players were solid, but expressed “they weren’t good enough” to get to the next level. One expressed that after playing College matches with Charles Howell 3. I have played with the D1 when he shot (63) on our home course, several times.

Also, was a walking scorer for a web.com event for several years. Amazing players, as well.

I would say in my limited experience, playing Pro Tour golf is a great pursuit, only a few can accomplish it!

 

 

 

 

 

[Strategery]

Had a club pro friend in Canada who claimed he shot lights out on his home course and was gearing up for CPGA qualifying. As the story goes, he beat all his friends as they got ready in Florida, and then when the time came for official qualifying he failed miserably. I played with him on his home course and was not overly impressed.

Another time I played with my bro-in-law in CA who was an experienced club pro (awesome short game) and he brought his friend out to play who was on the Hooters tour. We played at Lost Canyons in Simi Valley. Was not impressed. My bro-in-law beat him easily and I came close. Rumor was he partied too hard.

[chrisokeefe12]

I am about a 10 handicap now, and think I drive the ball pretty well. I have a friend from college that is playing on the mini tours and consistently shoots around 68 and 69 whenever I play with him at his course. He absolutely bombs the ball too and is usually 20-30 yards ahead of my good drives and almost hits every green. It definitely shows you how good players are on the tour level and how much they practice. It is fun to play with them, and get tips and pointers but its also fun playing with people your own level that you can compete with as well. Playing with better players than you will help you get better.

[Bgreene18]

I’ve had the opportunity to play with many pros, some mini tour guys and a couple PGA Tour winners and some top 50 ranked amateurs. There’s no comparison between a scratch golfer and a pro/top amateur. They don’t all bomb it 320 off the tee and they don’t go flag hunting on every hole. The one they do better than anything - they hardly ever get out of position. Whether it’s off the tee, a lay up, or on/around the green, they simply put the ball where it needs to be. And when the do miss a green, it’s damn near automatic that they get it up and down if not chip in. Their short games a sick! Scratch golfers (self included) are typically country club guys, they aren’t guys that can take that to ANY golf course and shoot a great number. Go watch the guys on the range after a round on tour. I watched Vijay hit about 200 balls after his round where he shot 6 under. He was testing new Cleveland drivers and he hit about 10 different ones. You could have put a king size sheet over 90% of them. They are just that good.

[jmichael204]

It really is quite insane. I was a +1 handicap for a while a few years back when I could practice quite a bit. Now I am around a 2-4 handicap. Fluctuates throughout the year. Ive known guys who have qualified for Euro tour and when you play with them you wonder how they could ever lose a tournament. But then you get them against the top competition on Tour and see what a grind it is to make cuts and to put together those low rounds WHEN IT COUNTS, is what separates the very best players in the world.

[Keen2bDumb]

I played with a former Pro on the Korn Ferry circuit. He shot 66. His game, imo, was solid tee to green, his putting was solid, however his short game was below tour average imo. I outmatched him around the greens, but I shot 75 and he shot 66 due to his extra 35 yards on his drive, giving him two club advantage every other hole. I noticed he only played a draw, and I work it both directions. I had more skill, but he had length, and twice the putting I have, so I saw where he was separate from me in that regard. He played rather conservative, as did I, however he took a couple good 110 yard wedges to 10 feet, and even when I matched it, I missed the putt and he made. I figured, given his status at my club, he quit professional golf. His short game imo just wasn't good enough, but everything else was on point.

[Keen2bDumb]

It's hard to get people to see how easy par golf is when you understand it. Usually when people shoot 10 over, if they're above-average ball strikers, they're just playing too aggressive tee to green. Either that or their short games are mediocre at best. I don't have any issue shooting 1 or 2 under, with my worst around par unless something ridiculous happens. Playing conservative is really a mindset thing. You have to respect that when you hit 12-14 greens 25 feet away, you'll make at least 2 or 3 of those, whereas if you hit 10 but short side yourself the other 8 missed greens, you're 5 over playing out of your socks. It's that mindset that gets you down from 5 to scratch, or even plus figure.

[hurricane2k3]

20 years ago when I was 14 my neighbour was on the European Tour, won one of the smaller events.

We used to play together quite a lot but he was so frustrating, he never practiced. His putting used to let him down a lot, played with him one time at my course he shot a 65 (Par 72) and missed 6 putts that round that were less than 6ft. He ended up losing his tour card and dropping to the challenge tour, sponsor dropped him so he was playing to earn and couldn't handle it and gave up the game. His best mate who was also on the European Tour and lived round the corner from us ended up in the top 20 earners 5 years in a row in the mid 2000's.

[LukeDonaldsTiger]

That’s interesting. My best rounds have always been when I played the most boring, conservative golf. Guess I have to find the fun in that. Apart from the look on the scorecard.

[Jackal66]

Years ago, I played in a corporate scramble.

It was for a large paper company out of Tulsa Oklahoma.

We were 4 man teams.

The plant manager didn't have a team.

At the last minute he got a young guy to join him for a 2 man team.

They kicked everyone's butt.

 

The young guy was a college player from OSU.

He was friendly, and super good.

 

His pose and swing looked fantastic.

When he would hit, you would think it was just OK sometimes.

 

Then he would drain a 28 foot putt, like the ball was remote control.

He always let the plant manager putt first.

Then he could see the line.

We watched them from our fairways.

On a tricky dogleg right, everyone was trying everything.

We saw him tee it up, and hit a super high driver over a tree line.

He was fully confident, and didn't think much about it.

They eagled the dogleg, and everyone else was bogey or double.

[Barnacle]

Actually just played with an ex Pro last Friday in a scamble. Played on the Nike Tour in the 90's? (now the Korn Ferry Tour). He played with guys like Duval, Mickelson, and Els before they got their tour cards.

I've played with Scratch Golfers often (best Friend's Dad was Scratch when I first started playing with him), A Nike Rep who is scratch as well.

This guy was just... different though. Full confidence in his swing and if he said he was going to hit a shot a certain way then he would do that. The best part though was how laid back he was, it was a scramble and he was a lot of fun to play with.

I've played with someone that good before but he was still trying to go Pro and wasn't nearly as fun to play with. Even in just a fun round playing from the forward tees at our club he took every shot 100% serious, read every putt etc. I did learn a lot from watching the way he approached a golf course though. The same take away though, if he wanted to hit a shot a certain way he just did it. He was fully confident in his swing. His mishits ended up just off the fairway instead of the trees. No snap hooks or slices. No truly bad shots.

[jrice19]

My buddy plays on the mini-tours and has played on the Kornferry tour here and there. His handi-cap is a plus 3.5 and has shot a 62 to win a tourney. It is awesome to play with him and on a different level to me (handicap 5). Also, his mindset is that he can play any shot and the confidence is unreal. He will make it one day.

Thanks,

Jeff

[GoTime]

I like this break down. In your experience, what's the difference in game or mental aspect between 1-2-3?

[Munich77]

Played with a former college golfer at my local muni. He was like 4 under after 18.

[jonnymc44]

Played with a +1 and former pro a couple of weeks ago. The +1 guy had a nightmare and shot 77 gross, just 1 worse than my 76, which was a tough grind. The former pro hit every green in regulation and 2 putted and just couldn't get anything to drop.

Compare that with Saturday just gone the +1 shot a 65 with 7 birdies and 11 pars, something that I could never do. Beating him on gross was great to do but his awful day was a good day for me. Puts things into perspective, even as a 5hcp.

[CougarRed]

When I was in HS, I played a little with John Horn. Horn attended the Univ. Of Houston and roomed with Jim Nantz in the same suite with Fred Couples and Blaine McCallister.

Tee to green, Horn may have been the best of all of them. Had every shot in the book. Could blister a drive screaming straight 250 yards and then have it take a 90 degree left turn in mid air, which came in handy on a U-turn par 5 we used to play.

Putting was his weakness. Once, I saw him hit 11 greens in 9 holes (par 5 in two, par 4 in one) and shoot 38.

Also played with Nantz, but Jimmy wasn't scratch. He still owes me $5.