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Low Trajectory - is it a problem?


MarkTheSark

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Hey..... Wierd situation here....

I moved to Wilson C200 irons with a stiff flex from Ping ISI with a regular flex...... Even with 20 ish newer year technology, it's the same distance, and way lower ball flight.....That, or the C200's Centre of Gravity is at the top of the club head - but more than likely it's the shaft.. I am realizing that I probably don't swing fast enough for a stiff... My theory is that I don't generate enough whip/torque for the shaft to move. Maybe I'm right? Maybe Im wrong. Who knows.

 

In any event, I'm trying to sell my irons, and having no luck, thinking I'll likely be stuck with them for the forseeable future. If that's the case, is there a downside to a low trajectory flight? The balls though, do stop remarkably well suprisingly with these clubs. Obviously, the wind hurts/helps you - and getting over trees can be an issue....

 

Any other downside? Just trying to justify keeping the clubs, or drastically lowering the price of the irons to move to a R flex. There's no other money in the budget for new wrenches.

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Your theory about how shaft flex works is not correct. When swung properly, the shaft actually adds very little to the dynamic loft at impact, especially in irons. There is no inherent need for any amount of whip and any flex can be used for any swing speed. That is if a robot was doing the swinging.

With people the problems can come from the feel and how that might effect the way you swing and how you deliver the club into impact. But everyone is different. Some people can swing any stiffness and get the same result but some can be fairly sensitive. So one possibility is that the stiffer feel is causing you to swing differently in a way that is delivering less dynamic loft into impact.

Now sometimes it's possible to adjust your swing to get used to the the different feel but it's not always easy. IF you are trying to force more torque or whip because you think the shaft needs it, then the first step would be to stop it. And that's actually a fairly common reaction to playing a shaft that's too stiff (so you wouldn't be alone). When a player is used to feeling a certain amount of loading in the shaft, and suddenly it's gone, they tend to try to force the shaft to feel the way they are used to and the swing usually suffers because of it. So just try to convince yourself that it's ok that it will feel a lot stiffer and that's not really a problem.

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low ball flight is not great with long irons if you have to fly hazards and hold greens. But that's been it for me mostly....i have a low ball flight.

With 6 iron and up i don't find any issues. I don't see how you could hit a 6 iron or 7 iron too low considering how much those irons spin. Even a lower ball flight should hold greens

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I played moonballs for years... killed me in the wind, and wasn't ideal... but didn't have the budget to get new irons (I still don't, but I didn't then either)... You can work on path to hit them higher or just play the game you brought. If they are stopping on greens, it sounds like you have enough spin on them... Wind becomes less of a factor, but you'll have to bend it around trees instead of over them. Hopefully, that isn't an issue all that often.

No shame in playing the clubs you have and making them work... hopefully, it will make you a better golf when you CAN get the clubs you want, as you will learn how to play the shots you can hit instead of trying to his shots you can't hit (like over trees)

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whats shafts are in the clubs? If they are the stock KBS Tour 90, I'd work on fixing the indian and not fixing the arrow. The C200s are meant to launch high.

 

edit: typo saying C200s arent meant to launch high. I meant they are meant to launch high. very low COG. Paired with the Tour 90s, most players would find this combo to be very high launch. Balloon combination for higher swing speeds.

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Shaft chart from KBS. Tour 90's are one of their highest launching shafts. C200s arent much stronger lofted than the Ping ISI's either, so that wouldnt count too much for the lower trajectory. I suspect you are having some impact issues. I'd work with you have and learn to raise the ball flight if you want to to. I think you have the right tools in your hands to do so.

 

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@MarkTheSark - The prevailing chatter trends evolve around high trajectory to hold greens. I play Titleist 620MB&CB 3-PW with Steelfiber Stiff 110g & 125g shafts, ProV1 ball and generally hit low-mid trajectory shots using spin to stop the ball on greens. There is NO downside to low-trajectory shots unless a person isn't using a ball that spins and or can't apply enough smack to the ball to create spin; which is what stops the ball on the green. Ball spin is all about shaft tip, ball characteristics and how SS and the club head impacts the ball. I play to 4-5 index.
PS, from what I know, by design Wilson C200 heads tend to be high trajectory. If you're hitting them stiff shafts lower than your previous irons, only concern yourself if club distance is shorter than your other irons.
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good point in here about spin, but also a higher spin might raise the flight as well.

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That's true. Higher ball spin can raise the trajectory but high spin doesn't normally happen by itself. If it did my trajectory would be much higher with ProV1, yet its not. I attribute that to my swing and not hitting the ball as hard as I can. With irons I figure my SS is about 90%. The harder I hit the ball, through, the higher the ball spin and trajectory. We're talking about distance and trajectory control which is done though swing mechanics, club configuration and ball characteristics. Least that's how I see it.

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I’d be surprised if the shaft alone is causing that dramatic a launch change. Are the club lofts the same? I suspect the new irons and shafts are actually weighted differently. And when playing your original irons, you would likely be neutral or even add dynamic loft, and the new iron weighting is causing a more dramatic deloft at impact. This is pretty common, especially when some players move to an overall heavier setup. Sometimes we actually want this to happen and put them in a heavier setup on purpose, to try and get it to happen. But that’s just a guess

 

as others have said, the only “downside” to a low trajectory is carrying hazards or greens with enough stopping power to hold. If you can hold the greens, doesn’t matter much (although you might be giving up some theoretical distance with each iron as well because of a non-optimized flight)

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i personally prefer vertical take off shots from my SW to my Driver... High and rising higher....

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I guess Stuart sees many golfers, but I only see my own game. And for me, at a low 75 MPH irons swing, shafts definitely affect height. I'm sure part of it is my body's reaction to the different shaft loading, but there is definitely a contribution by the shaft itself. Again, just one man's observation.

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When I got fitted for my irons a few years back, different shafts definitely made a difference in ball apex. With stiff flex shafts I was apexing 70-75’. With regular shafts my apex was about 100’. With KBS Tour V regular, apex was at 90’. Those are what we settled on. Swing speed with a 7i is 83-85 mph and spin right around 6200.

All this said, I like a higher ball flight. When you hear the spin of the golf ball followed by a towering flight, you know it was a good shot well before it landed.

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Do you go right back to higher ball fight when you go back to a swing with your old clubs? Just trying to rule out that maybe something has changed in your swing. I’ve gone through periods without making any club changes where I hit it high and then get in a funk where I hit low.

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I didn't say there wasn't a contribution from the shaft, I just said it was small compared to how much the change in feel has the potential to effect the swing. If someone has a fast enough swing speed AND a late enough release, they might be able to get a few degrees out of the shaft in a mid-iron. But an am with an early release wont see much of anything. In general even for the late release, it might be enough to be noticeable on an LM, but really not much more than a tweak of the flight than a major change to the ball flight like the OP is describing.

Just my opinion, but I think the bigger problem is its' hard for people to believe how much the feel of the equipment can effect their swing - especially since it feels to them like they are swinging exactly the same. But like many other things in golf, feel isn't always real.

 

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Forgive my ignorance, but I am about to get my first full bag fitting and this seems like a pretty good thread to ask what is "too high" and what is "too low?" I assume there are ideal numbers based on swing speed, apex, spin, launch angle, and descent angle?

Wouldn't everyone be chasing ideal parameters in the first place? So if someone is hitting it "too high", they get fit for a lower launch profile shaft, whereas someone who is hitting it "too low" would try out some higher launch profile shafts, but they would be aiming for the same ballpark in terms of launch and flight characteristics, would they not?

I really just have no basis for judging, and I have never hit my own clubs on a Trackman so I don't really know any of those metrics for what I am currently gaming.

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Depends!

Suggestions on mid to long irons or full set that will help me get more height on the longer irons?

My natural swing that got me to 9 hcp is a low draw. If I played a links course every day, it would be money all the time.

In the Pacific NW, that flight is good from now through Sept, when the ground is drier. The rest of the year it's costing me a ton of distance.

I can hit it higher with my current irons (Mizuno MP68 with DG R300) if I weaken my grip or move the ball foward and fade it, but that's not my swing and it falls apart...and gives up distance.

Short irons are not an issue. Low is good. The swing/flight also works with hybrids and fairway woods and driver -- a strong, boring trajectory.

My conclusion is I need a set of irons with which I can hit 7-5 or 4 higher while keeping PW-8 low.

Played a few holes at the end of a round yesterday with my setpdad's Ping Zing 2s. Even those are noticeably and markedly better than the Mizzy blades with the mid to long irons for someone like me with lowish/avg. swing speed (~95mph with driver).

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There really is no ideal for irons. With a driver you can use the distance to determine an optimal value, but with irons you can't. So with irons it really comes down to what's the best balance between the distance gaps for your particular set make-up. And what you might want for a trade-off between distance and distance control (roll out on the green). Higher launch, more spin and steeper decent angle means less roll out and better distance control - but it also means less carry distance. Everyone really has to find their own best balance for their game and the typical course conditions they might play.

 

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There are ideal numbers to maximize carry. Think of a catapult that shoot at 100mph. You can aim it up and down like angry birds, but mathematically there is one launch angle that shoots the canon further than any other angle. And that launch angle produces a certain height or apex that yields to the furthest distance. But this height can be affected by many different factors. Change the speed and the apex changes. Change the spin and the apex changes. Change the drag of the projectile and the apex changes. Change the weather conditions and the apex changes. ETC.

Here's the basic target apex based on swing speed with a 6 iron.

TrackMan Optimizer Values6 iron (optimized for carry and landing angle)

@ 95 mph club speed = height of 36 yards@ 85 mph club speed = height of 32 yards@ 75 mph club speed = height of 26 yards@ 65 mph club speed = height of 19 yards

That being said, these are just parameters to work around. Different equipment and different swings will produce different launch and spin. Not to mention people have different playing styles or preferences or play certain courses or in certain weather conditions that set up better for a different ball flight. But if you are well off the ideal numbers, than you may have want to revisit your equipment but probably look at your swing as well.

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Reading through this thread; I think you're experiencing the transition from what you're used to, to what you have now. I went from a traditional lofted set from the mid 2000s into Cobra F8s last year; my trajectory flattened out and I was having trouble spinning the ball enough to hold greens, but I was still seeing extra distance since my swing speed could handle it. I think the head/shaft weight difference is causing most of what you're seeing and feeling, with about 3 degrees stronger loft on the C200s compared to the ISIs, I think you're leaving some distance on the table with those shafts.

The fact that you've picked up a club when you go back to your old set tells me you're de-lofting the old clubs more due to the shift in your swing due to the headweight, and if you're de-lofting with the C200s you're probably losing distance because of it.

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