Manuel De La Torre Swing Focus

[Justmuckit]

I watched the 1987 clinic on Thursday night, and had one of my best ballstriking rounds on Friday morning. Looking forward to digging deeper into MDLT's teachings.

[chipa]

Please check my post I never said that he recommended  "rotating until your back hurts."

I said a center turn with little weight shift hurts my back and expect it will hurt others who have back problems like me. Also, the back will have strain like all muscles under tension. BTW I'm glad your back doesn't hurt you.

[sshadow2]

I find that the key to this for me is to not try to keep my lead arm super straight in the backswing. In fact, the more I bend my arm (still only slightly) the less stress and stretch I feel on my back muscles. And no lower back problems whatsoever. Where I used to have a sore back after a round, no such problems now.
I assume you @chipa are taking pieces of the MDLT principle and trying to apply them to how you and your brother already swing. which may or may not be some form of the modern swing. I've failed time and again with this. It's a different swing from what is generally taught and I think starting from scratch is the best way to learn it.

[chipa]

With all due respect I only pointed out what MLDT had in his video where he clearly shows the stance is centered and not more on the right side. He even shows that in the backswing how "not" to load more of the right side and how it is better to stay "centered".

I don't know how long you have been playing golf but that was the prevalent swing theory when this video came out - a centered swing where the left foot mostly stays down. If you look at the video you will see what I am talking about.

[chipa]

Pointing out that MLDT preferred a "centered" swing doesn't undermine his swing theory, after all by all accounts he maintained a certain amount of flexibility regarding technique because he wouldn't change his students swings to a great degree and at any rate always said "just swing the club".

[tm3]

That sounds great! I'll give it a try.

 

Thanks for your help!

[sshadow2]

Respectfully, if you are implying that the MDLT was following the trend of the day, that would not be correct. In truth, the "modern" swing has gone through several iterations (positions, grips, stances, etc) over the last 80 years whereas the Ernest Jones/MDLT swing has remained pretty consistent.

Before the centered swing trend was the reverse C trend. MDLT never did that.

If the muscles in you body, including those in your back, are loose, it will do what it needs to do to get into any position with the least amount of effort and pain. Provided that you can swing a club, if you focus on putting your club behind you, over your shoulder, without worrying about plane or positions, you will get there. Swing the club to the other shoulder while brushing grass at low point, and you will get there. It may not look like a pro swing for you, but its still a golf swing.

I don't know your physically capabilities, and I'm not saying this is the best swing for you, but it shouldn't aggravate any back issues if strictly following the principles.

 

[chipa]

I only proposed that MLDT said to stay centered as opposed to a significant weightshift because that was the prevalent theory at the time.

Unfortunately doing this type of centered swing hurts my back and will others too with weak lower backs. It's a wonder Freddy Couples still plays golf using this type of swing with all the back trouble he has had since his 30's. BTW, I'm glad you don't have this problem.

 

BTW, having a significant weightshift does not compromise MLDT's theory, after all he just said swing the club over your right shoulder.

[sshadow2]

Right. The trend ("prevalent theory at the time"). Which I stated was incorrect.

Also, when he spoke of weight shift, he said the club will do it. The force of the swing will pull the body into position. So, shifting as it is taught by the modern swing IS contrary to the MDLT method.

Please also note, the rotational swing, a modern swing, does not support weight shifting either.

[chipa]

Please look at the video he talks about staying centered during the swing. I have already mentioned this a few times.

BTW, a significant weightshift is actually very old school, look at any videos of Harry Vardon, Horton Smith and Bobby Jones. Jack Nicklaus had a significant weightshift too. That changed in the 80's with players like Norman and Couples who stayed centered.

[The Pearl]

Thanks for the clarification. I apologize if I was being contentious, it was not my intention.

[juststeve]

In this thread there are a number of misconceptions about what Manny taught. For the benefit of those who want to swing the way he thought, a few clarifications.

Manny used and taught the same swing from the time he was a player through his life as a teacher. The principles of his swing were originated by Ernest Jones shortly after World War One and later modified, slightly by Manny. He was amazingly consisted in his teachers and by no means influenced by passing styles. I first took a lesson from Manny in 1968 and he taught the same thing through the end of his life.Manny did not teach a rotary golf swing. Those who do rely on the rotation of the body to power the swing are teaching something nearly opposite of what Manny taught.Manny taught an equal distribution of weight on the right and left foot at address, at he end of the back swing and until impact for at least 2 reasons. 1) he wanted his students to remain in balance until the ball was gone and 2) he wanted us to swing around a stationary swing center. Shifting weight to the right with the back swing moves the swing center back. Once the swing center moves back you need to return it to its original position before the ball is struck or manipulate the club to make clean contact. Indeed having a moving swing center means the club is not truly swinging but doing something else instead. More than any other thing Manny wanted the club to be swung, not moved in another wall.Manny's method does not endanger the back. This is because Manny was content to have each student's body respond to the swing in a natural fashion for that student. This means that the response will differ from person to person depending on their levels of fitness or flexibility. Unlike many other teachers Manny never encouraged students to move their bodies in a particular way, much less one that put their health in issue. Just swing the club with the hands and arms and allow your body to respond as your body responds. There are a lot of good ways to swing a club but Manny's approach was holistic. Deviate from any of the elements an the other elements won't work as well.

 

Steve

[chipa]

@juststeve
You say that the "centered turn" swing that is shown in Manny's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXJQGLHRXIE starting at 39:35 will not hurt one's back. Might I ask if you have had serious back surgery or issues?

[juststeve]

At age 72 I have two knees in need of replacement but a sound back. I assure you that if it was my intention to produce the kind of coil Manny did in 1987 I might well have back problems, but producing Manny's coil is not part of his teaching. What he taught was how to move the club and to allow the individuals body to respond to the motion of the club. My body does not respond at my current age, like it did in my 20s, but that doesn't matter because I still know how to move the club. If you swing the club correctly the ball doesn't care what your body did.

Steve

[chipa]

Steve thanks for pointing out the issue with the video for those with weak or surgically repaired backs like myself. This topic is important to me not only for me but for my brother who has a worse back condition than me. I had seen Manny's videos but didn't remember this one segment until my brother told me that's how Manny said to do it and that's that and I'm afraid if I can't convince him to load up his right side and get his left hip in he's going to be in the hospital.

BTW, sorry to hear about your knees, I'm 55 and my left knee has no ACL and only half the cartilage. Apart from thanking God for being able to play golf I attribute part of my knee stability to intermittent fasting and front lunges that keep tension on the leg at all times instead of touching the floor. Nothing else I have done during 34 years in the gym comes close.

[chipa]

@juststeve BTW, I agree that MLDT's swing properly executed shouldn't hurt anyone's back, however the issue is my brother was taught all type of bodily contortions by a pga teaching pro and this is his concept of how the swing is learnt and I'm afraid he will focus on that one part too much to the point he may exaggerate the move and hurt himself. BTW I follow MLDT's concepts and practice them everyday based on the videos on youtube.

[juststeve]

If he chooses to adopt the MDLT system it is essential that he do hat Manny taught and not add pieces from other methods. The other methods might work but they are not compatible with what Manny taught me. This applies with the most strength to contorting the body. In Manny system the body responds to the motion of the club. If you are moving your body deliberate it can't be responsive.

Steve

[chipa]

I have been trying MLDT's method and now after some time feels as if everything is getting connected when before it was just every body part doing something on its own getting into some predetermined position and then hoping that the timing was good on the way down. But that has been a process after all many of us who are learning the swing have our heads filled with p3, pronation, motorcycles, etc, haha. I just don't want my brother to think what he saw was absolutely essential to MLDT's concept, like you said the body should react to the club and other than getting the club over the right shoulder and swinging to the target there doesn't seem to be really any other unbreakable rules.

[chipa]

I plan on posting a video of my swing but want to give myself a couple of rounds first, maybe in September. My only swing thoughts are:

look at target then address ball and look again.hands relaxedswing back feeling the club, ensuring grip stays together and get hands over right shoulder(for full swings) then swing thru to the target.I try to be aware of having the toe up on practice swings only due to a very bad method I was taught early on when I started playing golf which was the one piece takeaway where the hands do absolutely nothing. I am focusing on keeping my hands together because up until trying MLDT's method they went their own separate ways, haha. I expect the more I practice I will no longer have to check and see if my grip is coming apart.

I also do a lot of short practice swings so I don't always get my hands over the right shoulder, I just focus on going back and thru feeling the club.

[juststeve]

The club head goes over the trail shoulder, not the hands. When I get there my hands are about shoulder hight, not nearly over the shoulder.

Steve

[chippa13]

Many of my practice swings are done so that I start with the arms/hands and club "pre-rotated" in the "toe up" position and I just want to feel the clubhead traveling back over the trail shoulder. I've even started actual swings with the hands/arms already in that position.

[chipa]

I do the same thing too. Maybe you were a product of the "one piece takeaway" immobile hands takeaway theory like me haha.

Serious though these two conflicting theories have been around for decades and what bothers me is that depending on the length of the swing both methods are valid but one rarely sees that in golf instruction or in forums. Some one piece guys say it is a myth that pros roll their hand over to start the swing even if you show them a video. What I see is that the longer the swing the less the forearm rotates among better players, but for the shorter swings there is generally more forearm rotation. However, I have found very little discussion about this, and for the novice player this is very frustrating as most find out when trying to keep the hands inactive for 1/2 swings and chips, etc.

[jporter91]

Hey Steve, I’ve adopted the MDLT theory this year and have noticed an unbelievable improvement to my scores. However lately I’ve been hanging my irons to the right, sometimes starting straight with a drift to the right and other times just a push.

When I try and work on toe up in the follow-through I feel like I’m using the hands in the downswing. Maybe it’s as simple as alignment issues but I’ve focused on that and I don’t feel like my alignment is the issue..stronger grip maybe?

[juststeve]

Toe up is where you want to be when the club is horizontal post impact. That gives you a good chance of having the blade square at impact. I find that I get toe up as soon as my right arm goes straight post impact. I'm not using my hands to do that but I feel it and the rest of the swing through my hands.

 

With regard to your grip, turning both hands clockwise a bit might help you square the club but work into it with very small changes making sure your hand remain in balance with each other, that is with palms facing.

Hope that works for you.

Steve

[Guest]

Juststeve (and others)...

(I apologize if I am in the wrong thread/section. I'm fairly new here so still learning...)

I'm a beginner to the MDLT swing. My brother suggested it after I was talking to him about Shawn Clements' youtube videos (wisdomgolf).

First, I have to say I am BLOWN AWAY after watching everything on MDLT. I just received his book last night and read a good portion of it. I'll say the the concept (as far as I can tell) of letting the body react to the momentum of the club, rather than me trying to manage the two dozen things my former golf coach had me try (to ZERO success after six months of lessons and a lot of discomfort) is just too incredibly easy to put into words. Simple Simon, no muddy thoughts to crash into each other, no timing issues that were doomed to failure, etc.

On to my question: If you are familiar with Shawn Clements, he talks about the downswing and getting out of the way of the arms to let the momentum from the club swing smoothly through. To me, at least, it seems very similar to MDLT. Is that correct?

Both swings seem very fluid, like I am just along for the ride. And I can finally forget about focusing on the ball and wondering/wishing (as I used to never have any real idea until after the swing) that the ball would go where I wanted.

Any thoughts on the above as a new beginner who wants to go this stress-free, fluid route?

Lastly, anyone have any names of coaches in the Hampton Roads Virginia area that teach the MDLT swing?

Thanks so much. I've been reading all the posts here and have learned a lot already!

Cheers!

[juststeve]

I don't claim to know a lot about Shawn Clements but it my impression that he advocates deliberate use of the body as opposed to a reactive body. If you are deliberately moving your body it can't react to the club.

Steve

[Guest]

Ok, thanks for the discernment! Hopefully I come back here with some good results to report...

...of course, everybody on the forum hopes that

[chipa]

Seeing that Manny didn't define the takeaway methodology I have resorted to studying the video where he physically holds the club of his student and starts the takeaway starting at 5:00 to 7:10.

Here like many students (myself included) he takes the club back without barely turning the hands and no wristcock and the club is extended away from him. However, Manny holds the students club and immediately turns the hands over before the club starts to rise at any great degree. Manny also says part of the problem why his student doesn't know how to swing is the improper "wrist action".

So while Manny never apparently defined the takeaway sequence at least I now have evidence of the sequence to work with as opposed to be relegated to swinging like this young man for lack of knowledge. This has not been intuitive for me, however I expect for others it is, but i also know there are many more people out there like the young man and me who are lost in this regard.https://youtu.be/KXJQGLHRXIE?t=300https://youtu.be/KXJQGLHRXIE?t=300

[juststeve]

Don't complicate what doesn't need complication. Use both hands and swing the club head over your trail shoulder.

Steve

[chippa13]

All this takeaway talk has me feeling like I'm watching someone do new math.