Code of Conduct Experience

[rogolf]

Well the last 10-12 posts in this thread have been largely uninformative - just bickering between two individuals who won't accept the other has a point. Thread should be locked.

[antip]

That discussion is off topic, I don't see a logic in locking this thread. They should take their debate somewhere else.

[antip]

[rogolf]

I can live with that.

[Warrior42111]

Just curious, @rogolf as a referee what is considered indecent language enough to get a warning / penalty? Missing a putt and saying "shoot" out loud? perhaps an F bomb? or is it more enforced if the words are used towards another player?

[denkea]

As a side note. The No 1 rated golf course in the world year after year, Pine Valley, does NOT have rakes in the bunkers or on the carts. No raking the bunkers after a shot. Smooth your footprints as best you can and get on with it. They are put there to be penal.

[Mr. Bean]

Indecent language is not a simple and straightforward issue as it is linked with cultures and countries. I can picture in my head an Italian guy missing his short putt and the level of voice thereafter with certain, not dirty but 'descriptive' words following. As an opposite I can picture a Japanese man playing with his boss just bowing to the ball and to his boss for humiliating him by missing such a short putt.

Also at least around here we tend to tolerate harder language from adults than juniors. Our basic principle is that if your swearing can be heard by others than people in your own group you are out of line, and juniors are confronted with that as soon as possible while adults may get a more delayed contact. Naturally presence of spectators lowers the threshold to interfere with not only the language but gestures and general body language as well.

[Mr. Bean]

Which Pine Valley of 15 Pine Valley courses in the US would that be?

[rogolf]

The four letter friend-getter loud enough for anyone but himself to hear would get my attention. Obviously, if I hear it, it's louder than that as I'm normally 40 or 50 yards from players. As a referee, my usual reaction to hearing such language is to get the player aside and say something like, "I thought I heard something back there that isn't appreciated...maybe you should tone it down." That would not be an official warning, just a notice that it was heard and a request to show more respect. I know some referees that would want him or her off the golf course at the first occasion, but we (referees) also have an educational responsibility - even for adults.

 

[Mr. Bean]

So... you wanted to understand my post in such a way that we around here to not educate adults, is that it? Try reading it again.

[rogolf]

I wasn't replying to your post, nor inferring anything about you or your post. My response was to a question asked of me by Warrior24111. Not sure why you apparently feel insulted by my response to a direct question by Warrior? Maybe chill out a bit.

[denkea]

The only one that has been rated #1 in the world year after year.

[Mr. Bean]

Now that was helpful. Is it that difficult to give the State or even the County?

No wonder people here in Europe think yankees are arrogant...

[davep043]

What I find interesting is that @Mr. Bean included both repair of divot holes and raking of bunkers as things that could be required in a Code of Conduct, with a specific penalty for violation. Yet @oikos1 has chosen to separate the two, acting as if repair of divot holes is never required, while raking of bunkers is. That's not the way I read @Mr. Bean.

[Sawgrass]

You sure about that "in the world" thing?

[denkea]

Ugh!!!! Yeah. About that. Let's make that the U.S.

And Mr Bean. How do I know where you are domiciled? It's in New Jersey.

[Mr. Bean]

I guess my post #38 should have given you a clue that at least not in the U.S...

[denkea]

And Guess what? If you'd have googled #1 Gofl course in the US, instead of all the Pine Valleys, The one in New Jersey would have shined bright as the No. 1.

[oikos1]

@davep043 , to be clear, I do not believe a player should ever be penalized during a match, whether professional or the Sunday foursome, for not providing maintenance of the course. How could this possibly ever be assessed? Is one pass of the rake through the bunker good enough? What about all of the players who do not know how to properly repair a divot. Do we assess them a penalty for trying even though they get it wrong? It's absoluteley ridiculous and preposterous to think stroke penalties or loss of hole should even be a possibility.
Now, on the topic of etiquette, I do believe everyone should properly repair a divot on the green. Fill in your fairway divots with the strip of carpet you just floated twenty yards down the fairway or if provided, use a sand canister. I also have no problem with @denkea 's position of "Smooth your footprints as best you can and get on with it" when leaving a bunker. That's a courtesy that certainly can be performed before leaving a bunker. No need for a rake, and certainly never a penalty for not performing any of the above. Those are issues that can be enforced by the golf course and committees through fines, suspensions and banning if the behavior is chronic and damaging to the course.

[antip]

Thank you for your view. Mine is significantly opposed. I am pleased that Code of Conducts for many National Body events around the globe, at the least, are on my page and not yours.

[oikos1]

Perfect. Perhaps you can explain to me how a penalty can be fairly assessed, for not raking a bunker, to someone leading a tournament or match.

[oikos1]

Just caught this. I'll ask you as well since you act as though you have something informative to offer. Please explain to me how a penalty can be fairly assessed, for not raking a bunker, to someone leading a tournament or match.

 

[rogolf]

If a penalty for a breach of the Code of Conduct is warranted, as a referee, I do not have an issue informing anyone of that penalty - whether he or she is leading a tournament or a match is irrelevant. In our situation, it is the tournament Rules Committee which will decide whether a penalty is warranted, not an individual referee. Just like pace of play, the facts will determine the outcome regardless of the player's position in the standings.

In the past, I've had players complain about another player's lack of care for the course, abuse of the course or abusive language, and am obligated to do the appropriate follow-up.

[oikos1]

I appreciate your response, but you didn't answer the question, so I will be more specific. And to clarify, Mr. Bean stated "If you ask me, you SHOULD be penalized for not raking a bunker", which stuck me as odd and unnecessarily penal. Upon further review, under the Code of Conduct, 1.2 Standards of Play, "smoothing bunkers" is the phrase used, so clearly not "raking" a bunker would be considered acceptable and "smoothing" becomes even more vague.

So, how would the Rules Committee fairly decide a penalty is warranted for not "smoothing" a bunker in a tournament? Is there a definition for proper smoothing of a bunker? Why would a rules committee even be given the power to determine the outcome of a match for someone choosing not to smooth, or forgetting, or not smoothing a bunker properly? Is it the responsibility of a player to manicure a bunker such that when another player hits their ball into the bunker they are assured the most pristine of lies? No one has yet to justify why another player is responsible for someone else's lie in a bunker such to the point that they would incur a penalty for such a breach as not smoothing a bunker.

[2bGood]

It is an interesting cherry picked point. But only 1 of the top 10 golf course in the world don't rake bunkers. I would suspect that it might turn out the only 1, maybe 2 of the top 100 courses in the world don't rake bunkers and only 1 maybe 3 of the top 1000 course don't rake bunkers. To be honest I have played more than 50 of the top 100 and have never played a course where bunkers don't have rakes.I suspect the number course in the top 10000 in the world that don't rake bunkers is well under 1%

Pine valley is very much an exception in this regard, and of course, though members do not rake the bunkers grounds staff do rake the bunkers each morning and throughout the day.

[Sawgrass]

“So, how would the Rules Committee fairly decide a penalty is warranted for not "smoothing" a bunker in a tournament?”

 

Answer: via good judgement. Referees and committees frequently have to make subjective judgments, do a reasonable job and you’ll likely be fine.

We get it, you don’t like it, but some people do and you might as well move on.

[rogolf]

Let me put it this way - I'll know it when I see it and report those facts to the Rules Committee. The player will already know, through a warning, that his actions are being observed. Some it will come from evaluating whether or not he is making his "best effort". Ultimately it could be a judgement call by the Committee, but that call will stand.

[antip]

You already have good replies from Sawgrass and Rogolf that deal with your questions. I'll add the observation that 1.2a's 'smoothing' is unrelated to the discussion of a Code of Conduct (1.2b authorised) limitation of on course behaviour. Any requirement outlined in a local rule-posted Code of Conduct is what a Committee will be assessing and there normally is a scaled response - warning, clear guidance to player in breach clarifying/confirming what they need to do. And here's some first hand experience in a significant pro tour event in this country - some unraked footprints were reported in a fairway bunker, so a course marshall was despatched to fix and the PGA officials worked through the field to find out which player was the culprit (in that their caddie had failed to fix) and the player was fined a significant sum. It is not at all unusual for Tour and national body tournaments to demand a standard of player behaviour that goes far beyond that required of normal club golf - which is more the pity for those of us that are occasionally appalled by the inconsiderate behaviour of some golfers.

In another post, you seem to agree that there is a case for poor on-course behaviour to be disciplined but you have indicated a preference that it be through non-golf penalties. That would still be best achieved through a clear Code of Conduct, but for me there is no good reason to limit the tools in the disciplinary kit bag.

[Mr. Bean]

It seems Sawgrass, rogolf, antip and myself are rowing the same boat. Indeed, no penalty stroke is assessed before the player in question has received a warning for their first offense, very similar to PoP policy.

The question 'how would you penalize a player in the lead' brought to my mind an incident shared on this particular forum years ago. There was a junior event where a young lad made a HIO but received a penalty stroke for slow play. In the thread many posters were appalled how a player can be ripped off a HIO by giving him a penalty but it was a simple case, the player had been warned and explained that next time he uses more time than allowed he will get a penalty stroke. And so he did, all the credit to the referee who had the guts to do the right thing.

[Deceptively Short]

I would have thought that being first out at Pine Valley, the only well known course that I have ever heard of where players do not rake bunkers, would be a distinct advantage. The first group get pristine bunkers and the following groups just have to trust to luck. I know which tee time I would want in a competition.