Is a Two Piece Ball a Step Back?

[munichop]

The primary difference between the less expensive 2 piece balls and the urethane models is spin. As someone said you can get distance cheap but you pay for spin. At what skill level that matters is based on the player. The idea that you need a urethane ball to play your best is marketing only. Like I have said before few things are more fun than beating a guy who has convinced himself he has to use the pro v.

[HyzerFlipDG]

I'm not a great golfer, but have posted a ton of 82-84s in the last 2-3 weeks so my consistency is better. With that said as much as I want to use a urethane ball (qstar tour) all of my best rounds are with the top flite hammer control. I would love more greenside spin, but my scores don't lie.

[lenman73]

I have become a huge hammer control fan. So many people in this thread speak in absolutes, it's quite amusing. Weird, these stats didn't pop up in an online ball test. My longest drives are with 2pc balls this year. My lowest scores are with 2pc balls this year and I use urethane as well so I do have something to compare it to. I have seen high cappers blow as many chips over the green with a prov1 as I have a noodle. All these fliers with wedges, what ever. People will argue till they are blue in the face that an iron won't have a hot spot after the manufacturer said it did, but yeah it was the balls fault. Oh but I read this online on a ball test. Well my scorecard says something else. There's an absolute.

[munichop]

I have said this in other threads- golf is a confidence game and while multiple piece balls offer more available shots to the player they also offer a wider range of poor results when mis hit. I think that is why a lot of golfers play better with a ball that has limitations. They know what it cannot do.. I know the balls I play are incapable of the low skid one hop and stop shot you see the pros play. I also know the balls i play will consistently bump and run. So I know which shot to play when I have a lot of green to work with. The 2 piece balls can improve your game by simplifying it. Yes they more point and shoot but they are consistent. If you find one that suits your swing keep using it no matter the multilayer temptations.

[Tanner25]

Before I heard about premium balls and it's spin, I just played golf. With my first few times of using a premium ball, there's the initial fun of seeing it spinning. But, also it came with a new awareness of balls that check up too early or ones that were perfect. I began worrying about greenside spin and it was a distraction. So, agreed. Without a premium ball, it is simple, you just play.

[lenman73]

Let's take ego out of this because a lot of posters in here bomb it 300 all day long and consistently hit 14 fairways and 18 greens per round. So a premium ball is understandable. Now take a high cap. How many fairways are they hitting ? That spinny ball put of the hay, that will lower the score for sure. Drive in the long stuff, second shot in the long stuff. How many of them do you see come up short already with approach shots ? How a ball that is made to do certain things is gonna help someone who can do none of those things really needs to be answered by the resident experts in here. Like the guy that said feel is sound. Without you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between balls. B.S.. As a midcap myself, I can assure you that if I were wearing headphones blasting Slayer on 11, I could still tell the difference in feel from a prov1 and a wilson duo. Now the difference between a prov1, tp5, zstar, there I will concede that those balls are similar enough that I could not.

 

Similarly, I don't think the actual course conditions are taken into account enough. If you live in south texas and the concrete you drove on to get to the course is softer than the greens, a premium ball might help. Where I live, I pick my ball based on where I am playing. Living in the same area for 40 years and playing here for 30, I know each courses quirks. Some courses where built in the 70's and their greens still roll like it, like where I'm playing tomorrow. Others, the newer ones have more modern and faster greens so a multilayer ball is used. But I know this, and even as a midcap I know what I am trying to do with a wedge. Strictly talking about high caps, how many can do that ? So many conversations here about how only the lowest of low caps can hit a blade, but in the same breath, now a high cap can purposely hit 12 feet past the hole and suck it back to kick in distance and use a multilayer ball correctly. This is why I do not like to deal with absolutes in a thread like this.

[eaglechip]

I'm a mid handicapper and I use a 3 piece surlyn ball. With a urethane ball my dispersion on spin with wedges is too high. Sometimes my chips and pitches check up too early sometimes they roll out, while with the surlyn spin is more predictable for me. My ballstriking is just not consistent enough.

Even my putting is significantly better. Maybe because I'm used to the ball or because of a relatively soft putter insert. Maybe it's a mental thing.

With my skill level I benifit more from a consistent shortgame then from a bit more stopping power for the ~6 GIRs I hit.

 

 

[BeerPerHole]

Sorry I didn't read this thread before posting my "cork-sniffery" post...

[The Pearl]

I am not sure that anybody is really arguing that the high-handicapper would benefit significantly from a tour ball. I guess it depends on what you consider a high handicapper. Certainly anybody who can't break 100, is losing a few balls a round, and his chipping back and forth across greens could play a range ball without suffering any consequences.

Setting the player aside, what we do know is undeniable. A premium tour ball is better. They are longer, spin more, and are better in quality and tolerances. Anecdotal, single sample "I hit a two-piece ball longer" is not relevant. Furthermore, whatever perceived "trait" a two-piece ball has in one area is almost certainly negated in other areas.

To me there seems to be a simple logical conclusion concerning this debate; "There is no downside to playing a tour ball, while there is a downside to not playing a tour ball." This is the golf equivalent of Pascal's Wager. The fact that I shot this or I am this hdcp with a 2 piece ball doesn't negate the point, it just proves that you can do X with Y.

The main argument against using a tour level ball is some variation of this, "I am not good enough to benefit from tour ball." This is absurd. You may not benefit from a tour ball on EVERY shot, but you will most likely benefit from a tour ball on SOME shots. Taken a step farther, you may only benefit from a tour ball on only ONE shot in a round. Back to Pascal, even if you don't benefit in any given round from a tour ball, it certainly did NOT hurt you!

Even one shot a round is the difference between breaking 90 and breaking 80. The obvious example is short siding yourself on a tight pin or leaving your approach short to a front pin. On most munis you can't "bump and run" every shot. You might have to go over a bunker or the fringe might be shaggy, etc. Regardless of handicap, your probability of getting the ball close to save a stroke is dramatically increased with a tour ball vs. your standard distance 2 piece ball. Now who is more likely to face this scenario, a 15 hdcp or a 1 hdcp?

The other short game rational seem equally absurd. "I like the consistency of a two-piece ball." If you are consistent it is not because of the golf ball. You are either a consistent chipper or not. If you can consistently chip a 2-piece ball you can consistently chip a tour ball. The idea that the ball smooths out your outcomes seems a bit of a stretch. For every tour ball that "checked up on me" there will also be a "tour ball that checked up past the hole." where a 2 piece may have rolled out.

Much the same can be said about pitches and approaches from 100 yds in. "It is easy for me to use a 2 piece ball, I just plan for a little release." This is is illogical. If your wedge and pitching game can plan for a little release than it can plan to fly the ball to the flag with some stopping power. As with chipping, the pitching and wedge approach logic applies...a tour ball will check where a two piece might not. A two piece will never check where a tour ball won't. Likewise moving out to the short to mid irons. A tour ball is only going to help, particularly for those thinned shots. You might get one to hold on the back of the green rather than scream over the back.

Of course the real myth with a tour ball is that it hooks or slices too much for me. Doubtful. If you hook or slice to the point of not keeping a ball on the property, a two -piece is not going to mitigate this consistently. In fact, a case can be made where a tour ball spinning and landing softly in more instances than not will save you from stopping from going out of bounds or stopping from rolling out into a bunker or hazard.

Likewise, never talked about is the stopping power of a tour ball when coming into a green from distance..hybrids, fairway woods etc.

While those that argue against a tour ball are in fact doing so somewhat against their own behavior. By the "this ball is good enough" logic than you might as well just buy the cheapest balls at Wal-Mart. If you are playing anything else than you do believe at some level the ball makes a difference. To simply bump up one level with only positive effects should be a no brainer.

 

 

 

[lenman73]

At some point, when someone's abilities are at a point where they can use a tour ball, then yes. I am strictly talking high caps that wouldn't know how to spin a ball if they wanted to. So now this 1 shot per round they might save was hit as an accident because they didn't spin it on purpose. Again, how many times do you see people come up short on approaches? This myth, and it is exactly that, a myth that everyone will benefit from a tour ball is simply a fallacy, but the manufacturers are loving it. Weekend warriors blasting prov1's in the woods all weekend and buying more on monday. Because of all that ball control they have. You don't need a prov1 when you are chipping with a pw or a 9 iron. You don't see a lot of high caps successful pulling off the high flop no do you. If they take lessons, chances are they are taught to chip with a 7 iron before a 60 degree wedge anyway. That seven iron will have a lot of grab on it chipping out of the rough I'm sure.

 

So going by the test that was done of 30 or whatever balls. Total driver distance difference was less than 10 yards. So let's get off the oh they are so much shorter train shall we. The only point I am will to concede is regional conditions. If you live in a hot and arid location, a tour ball may be an only option. But that is not due to the player, that is due to conditions. Well, not everyone lives in the desert. Where I live, I could get a glass marble to stop on some of these greens no problem. It's just the way it is. Travel 10 minutes cross town to a different course and I will use a tour ball.

 

Talk about anecdotal crap. Every bonus a tour ball has that has been talked about came from robot testing center strikes. Show me the data they did on off center strikes and slices and hooks and fat shots and thin shots. Then I might listen. When bridgestone had their own way to fit people into balls because even they knew not everyone had the swing speed to compress a higher compression tour ball. Anecdotal I'm sure.

[The Pearl]

You might want to read my first paragraph where I specifically excluded high handicappers.

[brew4eagle]

Well said

[Tanner25]

These arguments are silly, Just go with what you like. I prefer the feel of a two piece soft feel or a burnersoft at 60 compression. Previously, I liked the feel of a 3 piece gamer soft (compression unknown lol). I don't need to debate 2 piece vs 3 piece. Just go with what feels right and is priced right for your budget.

[North Butte]

If you're playing with a handicap, there is literally nothing about your equipment that matters to anyone but you. Let's say you give up 1 strokes per round playing a [fill in the blank] ball instead of [fill in the blank]. So you'll be an 8 handicap instead of a 7. Or if you're a hacker who none the less plays the same muscleback Titleist blades as Adam Scott and it costs you eight strokes a round. You'll be a 29 handicap instead of 21.

Play what you like, whether it's going to save you a stroke or not. If you get more joy out of playing off 10 and struggling to break 80 with a "wrong" piece of equipment than you would playing off 8 and breaking 80 a bit more often then do whatever brings you pleasure.

Just don't take a whiz on my leg and tell me it's raining. Multipiece urethane balls perform better than 2pc Surlyn balls, period. You don't "need" that extra performance unless you're playing off scratch and earning a living at golf. But the extra performance is there.

[Titleist_PT23]

Agree with your thoughts in theory. I often play a surlyn ball, but struggle to see how the other one is hurting me (provided I stick with it) around the greens, as you can always try to take spin off (use less loft) but can't make a Velocity spin like a ProV1. In practice, I do think some people (myself included) may actually see better scores going around the course knowing they only have 1 shot to play (basic chip/pitch with some release). Sometimes the only shot you have is to hit it 10-20 feet past the pin. You may make more bogeys (vs. pars) but you also make fewer doubles (trying stuff that you have a low probability of pulling off. Although correct decision making can eliminate these wasted shots). Although a lot of this comes down to how much you can practice, which again is a different question/constraint than ball choice.

I do think most high single / double digit caps vastly overestimate how much the ball is helping them though. They always have tons of stories about how they did this or that here and there. What you never hear though is the shot that checked up too quick or the one they chunked/bladed. As I said earlier, just show me someone's stats/scores and you can see whether they have control over the ball. Net-net, I would be shocked if its a shot per round. for a 10 (+/-) from a tour ball. But if the goal is to play your best I probably agree with using the tour balls.

[The Pearl]

Very fair points. And any advantage of a tour ball, for must of us, is at the margins. A couple of points for discussion. I do think that the "tour ball checking up" can happen, but is not really a big problem. Of course it depends on many factors, but you really have to still hit a super high quality chip or pitch to get that type of spin reaction. I do think most players would get used to using a tour ball in the short game if they commited to it. My main point concerning the short game is that there is likely to be a shot or two that a golfer might pull off in a round with a tour ball that he could not with a "regular" ball. Kind of like wearing a seat belt if you will. Same idea you could say.

Another point is that the price of tour level balls can be quite competitive. Srixon just had an incredible BOGO sale. The MG Tours are always $20 a dozen. Oncore had a BOGO sale at the end of last year, $18 a dozen. Titleist and Bridgestone not so much, but lostgolfballs.com have some amazing deals. If you can play a tour ball for relatively the same price as anything else than it seems like a no-brainer. Hence the Kirkland madness.

With that said, one thing I willingly acknowledge is that the ball technology across the entire spectrum of choices is quite amazing in terms of performance. Even the two-piece distance balls are extremely playable and the mid-level balls...3 piece and some with urethane are impressive. Some of my fav balls of all-time are in this category. The Maxfli U-3 was a total gem.

And all golfer's have their quirks. Some guys love drivers, some love irons, some love putters, and some are ball whores. My buddy will play anything he finds with dirt all over, but buys other gear like a crazy man. Go figure.

 

[munichop]

Of all the comments so far that will help the higher HC player improve it is blue dot’s advice that you pick a ball and stay with it. One thing I can add is ALWAYS chip and putt with the ball you play. I see even scratch guys warm up chipping with range balls then go play with a pro v. They would be better off not chipping at all before they play.

 

[Girevik]

On what type of shots will I notice a spin difference? Or maybe a better way to put is in on what shots will a better ball spin? I'd think first you'd have to be hitting off the short grass, right? What about on a 30 - 40 yard chip? Do you get enough club speed on those to get the ball spinning? I was under the impression that you needed to be taking something close to a full swing from short grass, and actually hitting a green to generate and apply much spin (and therefore if you rarely hit a fairway or a green from distance the question of spin is more or less moot).

[caniac6]

I'm a 4 handicap, and usually play a tour type ball. Just for the heck of it I tried some Titleist Velocities, and I thought they were pretty good. Given a bit of time to adjust, I'd probably still be a 4 using the Velocity.

[brew4eagle]

Doesn't have to be off short grass. Primary advantage is just about any shot around the green. Once you have a feel for these shots you'll have more options on how to play a shot. Especially short sided, where you'll absolutely be able to leave yourself a shorter putt vs a lower spinning ball.

[HyzerFlipDG]

If you are a 4 I would assume that as well. That means you are consistent enough with your mechanics that you would just need to adjust your shot selection for your ball.

[Titleist_PT23]

The point is the ball doesn't matter all that much. I'm a few shots worse and think the absolute maximum benefit I could see over an extended period is a shot per round. I'd bet it's closer to zero than a shot per round but it may still be an advantage.

[Titleist_PT23]

Primarily anything that is not a full swing. Maybe it will make a difference every now and then on a full swing but not that often. I think the difference in spin on a well struck iron shot (including PW/GW here although not as sure on that) is not that big of a difference. Maybe like 500 - 1,000 rpms across balls (excluding the range ball type rocks), which is like 1 less club. So are there times when a two-piece surlyn rolls 40 feet from where it hit with an 8-iron? Absolutely. But if you hit a 9-iron instead would the ball be right next to where it hit? No. One other difference is that many of the two piece balls are designed to fly higher. I.e. they use height and descent angle to stop vs. spin, so net-net there may not be that big of a difference (although some tour balls also fly higher than others). But half swings and around the greens you can see the difference.

[cristphoto]

Golf magazine did robot testing on half-wedge shots. Difference between surlyn and urethane balls was about 3000-3500 rpm's. Very noticeable.

.

[trapsmv15]

I’ve gone back to testing a 2 piece ball (Duo Soft) for a couple reasons:

1) hoping for higher peak height and descent angle, combined with playing super forgiving hybrid irons for the first time. I don’t think this will happen but I want to see anyway.

2) on short game shots. I can’t get even a ProV1X ball to check CONSISTENTLY enough to fly the ball to the hole and make it bite. This, combined with my tendency to miss short of the hole, makes me think that the “allow for a bit of run” shot will be more beneficial and consistent to my skill level.

3) I’m hoping that the lower spin higher launch, if it happens, will increase my driving distance too. Even though I’m a slow swinger, it seems like there are driver shots were I balloon the V1X a little bit with too much spin. This is observational and without a launch monitor, so it could be my imagination.

[lenman73]

The way I see it is the best way to find out is to try it. It doesn't matter what someone else in here says. The results you see on the course, whether good or bad, will be your truth.

[The Pearl]

This is really true. Despite the good info from the ball research, you are likely to have different experiences. Most balls in the same class will perform the same but you are likely to find one that does something a little better that stands out to you.

[lenman73]

I have to agree with your post for the most part with the exception that I don't think all non tour balls are created equal. When I use one, for whatever reason the titleist ones just do not work for me. But I do think I got lucky in liking the new top flite hammer control. But when I am picking a non tour ball, I am not going for distance balls. I will never buy a XL3000 or whatever they are up to now. I am still looking for a ball that at least has an inkling of being able to control it around the green. Personally, I am not a bump and runner. If I am within 40 yards of the green and don't have to hit under a tree I don't need to even think about what club to grab. It will be my 58 or 60 depending on which one I have in the bag.

 

Now I understand this won't set well with some but I still want a non tour ball to behave like a tour ball. I am not crazy, I know it will not be a 1 to 1 comparison. But in south west Michigan, on some of the courses I play on, the greens are soft enough and slow enough to let that happen. I am no way saying everyone will have the same results. My point from the start is there are more factors that go into it than just a robot test. If I were to hop on a plane tonight to fly to arizona or Texas to play golf, I would bring urethane. Hope that made sense.

[The Pearl]

I get it. I used to play these types of balls. Lots of good balls in this category. I guess my larger point is now that tour balls can be had for prices pretty close to regular balls, why not just play them as they won't hurt you? But not really a big deal for most weekend golfers. Let's face it the overwhelming majority of folks aren't on golf ball forums. Most don't even care as long as they don't lose a ball.

 

And the ball data is not a be all, end all, but just a nice starting point to pick a ball. For instance, the ProV1x is supposed to be the longest ball for slow swing speeds. Not even close for me. the AVX is a good 10 to 15 yds. longer on many drives. Same with the Snell MTB-X. Just fell out of the sky for me.

 

 

[L29]

Definitely agree with course conditions playing a factor in ball choice. I live and play in south Texas and had always heard you should play urethane in Texas when I first started playing, so I did, and always have. I’ve hit some two piece surlyn, but not enough to really know much about them for my game. I’d watch the pros back then and think, man I have no idea how they spin the ball like that.

Then, we had a really rainy season here one year and I played for the first time on a “soft” course-holy cow. Less roll out on drives, but I was spinning balls back all over the place. Full wedge shots were usually at least 3-4 feet behind the ball mark and sometimes more(and there were actually ball marks!). Half shots stopped in their tracks. It was crazy to see that when you had never personally seen it before.

This thread is gonna have me play some two piece surlyn balls this year when we get really baked out in August just to see what will happen...lol.

Whats the opinion on the spiniest two piece ball? What I’ve read on wrx so far leads me to believe the Wilson fifty elite or the Callaway super soft.