How do I stop pulling the handle?

[bmellisen]

Fwiw, i am not argueing against the before swing style, it is much like how i swing the club. But i dont agree that based off the still pictures provided that yo can say he can get into a good position with the before style. I am not saying he cant do it, just saying that i am not surprised he is getting better results using the after swing.

[danattherock]

Thanks for the opinions and video links. I appreciate them.

The "after" swing is getting results. When I get the club between my shoulder and neck when viewed DTL, assuming I don't pull the handle, I am hitting great shots. Played today with some great (and horrible) shots. But the good shots were better than I usually hit the ball. For whatever reason, I am one club longer throughout the bag. I am concerned with hitting the ball straight, as opposed to my normal push or over draw, but I will take the extra distance.

Big blocks and occasional shanks are what happens with this new position up top if I yank the handle down. When I lighten up grip pressure, take 2/3 swing, and think about the club head going out and around (rather than pulling the handle) I am getting great results. Not sure why, but this feel is allowing me to hit the ball long and straight. More effortless than ever.

In my lesson the other day down in Atlanta, Jim Grant kept talking about making the right arm longer in the downswing. Left arm pulls while the right arm pushes, equal force in their application to the down swing. He kept telling me to initiate the down swing with the right foot, then right knee, etc.. Not sure I am doing it yet, but it is a swing thought I am holding on to. But I got much work to do. This is going to take some time, but with each day, it is getting better. The new aspects of my swing are not overly hard. The hard part is letting go of the old bad habits.


-Dan

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336875910' post='4903442']
Thanks for the opinions and video links. I appreciate them.

The "after" swing is getting results. When I get the club between my shoulder and neck when viewed DTL, assuming I don't pull the handle, I am hitting great shots. Played today with some great (and horrible) shots. But the good shots were better than I usually hit the ball. For whatever reason, I am one club longer throughout the bag. I am concerned with hitting the ball straight, as opposed to my normal push or over draw, but I will take the extra distance.

Big blocks and occasional shanks are what happens with this new position up top if I yank the handle down. When I lighten up grip pressure, take 2/3 swing, and think about the club head going out and around (rather than pulling the handle) I am getting great results. Not sure why, but this feel is allowing me to hit the ball long and straight. More effortless than ever.

In my lesson the other day down in Atlanta, Jim Grant kept talking about making the right arm longer in the downswing. Left arm pulls while the right arm pushes, equal force in their application to the down swing. He kept telling me to initiate the down swing with the right foot, then right knee, etc.. Not sure I am doing it yet, but it is a swing thought I am holding on to. But I got much work to do. This is going to take some time, but with each day, it is getting better. The new aspects of my swing are not overly hard. The hard part is letting go of the old bad habits.


-Dan
[/quote]

In that case just keep doing what you are doing. It doesnt make any sense to take lessons then turn around and not do what your instructor told you to do. It's worse than Hoeing clubs.

Be careful with the right foot and knee starting down. Thats not a fast or quick movement. If your weight is still too much on the right leg and you force the right hip under the right shoulder you will get a back spasm. Smooth and deliberate.

good luck

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='bmellisen' timestamp='1336871677' post='4903008']
Fwiw, i am not argueing against the before swing style, it is much like how i swing the club. But i dont agree that based off the still pictures provided that yo can say he can get into a good position with the before style. I am not saying he cant do it, just saying that i am not surprised he is getting better results using the after swing.
[/quote]

Actually it's kinda Foley model. 90 to the spine shoulders, right leg straightens and the pivot is deep. The hands are a touch deep but the resemblance is there. I agree though Im not surprised he is getting better results with the after swing as well. Flattening the shaft in transition is a tough task. You might as well make a backswing that promotes it. Plenty of ways to get it done.

[attachment=1160970:post-7667-0-63195800-1336766345_thumb.jpg]


[attachment=1160972:Dantherock.jpg]

[danattherock]

Thanks for the warning on the right foot/leg initiating the down swing.

 

 

Below is a pic of Hal Sutton which reflects what I am going for. A long time student of Jimmy Ballard, Hal Sutton is my model so to speak.

 

 

Notice how the club falls in between the shoulder and neck. There are some aspects of what Jimmy teaches that makes this work.

 

 

Namely, allowing the left arm to bend at a point in the back swing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is Jimmy Ballard 101 and deals directly with what I am trying to work on.

 

Found this article just now while searching for Hal's swing pics...

 

 

 

 

 

So what did Hal do to turn his game around?

There have been a few things he’s done, and in fact, a couple of them are referenced in other tips on this site. But the most important change Hal made was the one he made to his backswing.There was an ESPN story in 1995 on Hal, soon after he began playing well again. He talked about what the major problem had been with his swing during his slump. He claimed that he was swinging the club too far to the inside on the backswing. He would roll the club around his body and the club would become very flat and "laid off" at the top of his swing. From that position, Hal faced two problems on the downswing:

He would severely pull the handle of the club down toward the ball, which would put himself in the "block" position... or

He would swing over the top, which is something the majority of high-handicappers do.

To correct this backswing problem, Hal kept the club in front of his body to

start

the swing. Instead of rolling the club around behind his body, he tried to keep the end of the grip pointing at his body as his club approached waist level. This carried over to a good position at the top of his swing and made his downswing much easier to execute properly.

By making this proper backswing, your club should feel "light" at the top because it will be supported by both of your arms. When the club gets laid off it feels very heavy, and doesn’t allow for maximum clubhead speed on the downswing. Also, having your arms in this powerful position at the top will allow for them to fall into the

slot

almost automatically on the downswing.

The following are a few quick tips you can take to the course to

help

you make the proper backswing:

Point the butt-end of the club at your right pant pocket as the club approaches waist level. You should be rotating your forearms clockwise slightly at this position as well. This will keep the clubface square.

Try to make your left elbow point toward the ground at the top of the swing.

Feel like your right arm stays above your left on the backswing. If you roll the club behind you, your left arm will be above your right arm

There are stories that Hal sometimes does the "split-hand drill" in his hotel room during tournament weeks. This is a drill where you separate your hands by a couple of inches and make backswing motions. It’s also called the "Ty Cobb" drill. It’s a great drill for keeping the club in front of your body and not allowing it to loop behind you.

So give these things a try and maybe you can find your game again, just like Hal Sutton did.

 

 

 

 

 

http://bestgolftips....sutton-now.html

[PingG10guy]

Great info on a pattern not so often discussed on golfwrx. Awesome.

[danattherock]

Well, today was the day it all started coming together.

 

 

 

Spent an hour on the range. Committed to my 2/3 (powered) swing and light grip pressure. I could "spring" the shaft and didn't yank on the handle as bad. When I did, it was obvious as I pushed or blocked the shot. I went through the hole bucket and only mishit 5-10 balls badly. The bad shots I could almost feel my left arm overpowering my right, pulling the handle down. The lighter grip pressure was a key for me. In using it, good things happened. Not very scientific, but it worked.

 

For the first time since my 2 day lesson with Jim Grant last week, I hit more good shots than bad shots. A trend he told me would happen in the coming weeks. Sure felt good to fire 7 iron after 7 iron at a 150 yard flag. The vast majority would have been on the green during play. Perhaps 20-30% would have missed right.

 

One of two things causing this, again, forewarned by Jim. I was either slightly laid off up top or on the downswing I was pulling the handle. In both case, an overly inside/out swing path was the culprit. I am slowly but surely getting a handle on this Jimmy Ballard 'connected" swing stuff. Got lots of work to do, but my good shots are better than anything I have ever done before.

 

Now just need to ingrain these good changes and improve my consistency. The causes of my misses are 4:1 pulling handle versus being laid off up top. I must learn how to stop yanking the club down with my left arm. This thread is helping and I appreciate all the contributions.

 

 

 

 

Great info on a pattern not so often discussed on golfwrx. Awesome.

 

 

 

The below video gives a basic idea of what Jimmy Ballard teaches. The one refreshing thing in world of flip flopping and trendy swings, instructors changing what they teach every few years etc... Jimmy Ballard has not changed his philosophy in 40 years. His book was released in 1981, sold out, out of print, $300-500 on Ebay. He made the publisher reprint it and didn't change one word. His VHS video was out in the 1980's. He had it formatted to dvd and sells the same video now. I know there are a lot of different views on how to swing a golf club. But I have no doubt Jimmy believes what he teaches. Worked for some of the biggest names in golf. Looks like it is working for me too. If this catches anyone's attention, buy the book and dvd from Jimmy's website. It actually makes sense which is in great opposition to the many other golf swing books I have read.

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ZH9AlsAYs

 

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUhu1S1hI3Q

[PingG10guy]

[quote name='danattherock' timestamp='1336949803' post='4907528']
The causes of my misses are 4:1 pulling handle versus being laid off up top. I must learn how to stop yanking the club down with my left arm. This thread is helping and I appreciate all the contributions.
[/quote]

Try feeling PP3 at the top of the swing. Do some TGM research. If you dont have that then you will be inconsistent. Look up aimpoint concept. Where to direct this "left arm pulling" and "right arm pushing". It is the secret to how much of [i]on plane[/i] your downswing is.

If you dont give yourself a direction to aim pressure and thrust then you will keep the old habit. It's all you know...so give yourself a chance to know something different and read TGM. Kevcarter would have something good to say but I havent seen him in a while. I dont teach, but Im a student of these concepts and now that you have structure and support that you are comfortable with then I know you can make tiny changes to your hands/arms and solidify the great ball striking.

You sound as close to your swing as I am to mine lol. I spanked my 5 iron trainer club 225 a few times today. I call it the trainer because it is almost 4* flat lie and standard length. I usually hit pull cuts with the 5 that go 185-190ish. I had totally different foot action today because of how I was releasing the club. Oh my God I cant wait to get it done lol.

Agreed on the hard work associated with changes.

[danattherock]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336952457' post='4907768']

Try feeling PP3 at the top of the swing.

[/quote]




Sounds like I need to start using my PBS again.


Thanks for the suggestion.



-Dan

[danattherock]

Found something relevant in Jimmy Ballard's book this morning...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[danattherock]

[quote name='PingG10guy' timestamp='1336952457' post='4907768']
Do some TGM research.

Kevcarter would have something good to say but I havent seen him in a while.

[/quote]


I hold TGM and Kevcarter in extremely high regard. Kevin has helped me here over the years more than anyone. I spent a day down in Georgia with Jeff Evans 2 years back. He is big into TGM as you may know and is an amazing instructor. He also invented the Pure Ball Striker (PBS) which is the best $20 I ever spent on my golf game.

I bought Bobby Clampett's book, "The Impact Zone". Until getting Jimmy Ballard's book and dvd recently, "The Impact Zone" was the book that had the biggest impact (pun intended) on my golf swing. Cliff notes for the yellow book some say, his book was very valuable to me. I even bought the yellow book, but couldn't understand it. In the end, I can say I agree with many of TGM principles, I just can't digest or employ the material. My experience doesn't seem that rare.

In contrast, reading Jimmy's book and watching his one hour dvd is more like having a beer with a friend. Casual conversation, loaded with facts, pictures, and references to all the greats in the game. Much reference (and reverence) is given to Ben Hogan. It is a very simple approach to something I have admittingly made harder than it needed to be. A basic athletic motion with a few (7) key concepts. Non of which seem contrived or require super human flexibility, timing, or athleticism. My main obstacle is simply undoing all the damage I have done to my golf swing before hearing of Jimmy Ballard.

All this goes back to Babe Ruth of all people. A tip (hankerchief under left arm) he gave a team mate (Sam Byrd) who later won like 20 events on the PGA tour after retiring from baseball. The same guy that helped Ben Hogan. Taught it to Jimmy way back when and it gave birth to Jimmy Ballard as a teacher. We likely would have never heard of Curtis Strange or Hal Sutton had Sam Byrd not taught Jimmy Ballard what Babe Ruth taught him way back when. A fascinating story, truly. But as I said, most importantly, it just makes sense.

Very interesting article below about Jimmy Ballard for anyone interested....

[url="http://www.departures.com/articles/ballad-of-jimmy-ballard"]http://www.departure...f-jimmy-ballard[/url]



-Dan

[cory0789]

push the handle instead of pull it...

[Dane Litko]

Honestly, without getting too technical... if you would like to take a few simple thoughts to the range in order to stop pulling the handle it would be these:

Relax your grip pressure, which allows for softer wrists and arms. Focus on keeping your wrists and arms soft throughout the swing. Pulling the handle occurs when you activate the muscles in your arms and wrists in an attempt to try and hit at the ball from the top of the swing.

We need to keep our arms and wrists relaxed and TRUST that we will swing through the ball with our pivot/turn. The key thought into transition and from transition to the downswing will be PATIENCE. Let the wrists c0ck during the transition and let them uncock through the ball.

Don't try to hit the ball with your wrists, hit the ball with your pivot.

The golf swing is exactly that, a SWING. If you interrupt the swinging process with wrist and arm manipulations you will cripple the efficiency and consistency of a swinging motion.

I always encourage my students to exaggerate the looseness and relaxation of the wrists and arms. Once you do this you release their control over the club and hand the control over to your pivot. From this exercise you can really learn how it FEELS to use your pivot to swing the golf club.

[ej002]

All I know is the impact position on the right looks pretty damn good to me - and the one on the left looks like a stall.

[bruizer]

You still pulling the handle and hitting in to out.?? Let me know how you fixed it because I've been trying for years for fix this and it always comes back