Speed first or Accuracy first

[BB28403]

That’s not true. The super speed system works. Training in conditioning programs work. And working with a teacher on speed works. All those things can find most adults 10-15mph club head speed.

[BB28403]

He’s a chiropractor isn’t he? I mean I like the guy, buttttt....

he’s also a salesman selling a $1000 course for each TPI segment. And now it’s online... blahh

[Metrocruiser]

Hi all,

 

I did not read the whole thread but I'd like to share my experience. I'm over 50, when I was in my 20s I could drive over 275 yards. I enjoyed it for 10 years and then I got married. I did not golf from 2000 until about 2017. From 2017 to very recently, I was driving the ball 225-250. Within the past month or so, at the range with the help of YouTube, I have increased my SS to about 108-110 mph I am carrying to the fence at 275 with power fades and hitting the fence at 10 feet high with draws. At this moment I have a frozen left shoulder as well. I'm about 15 months into it and have lost a lot of mobility. Fortunately I can still swing and go to the range while my kids take their lessons.

So I think that people can learn to swing faster with education, training, motivation and practicing the right way.

I wonder how far and straight a distance ball would go with my newly found swing.

I'm happy as hell and can't wait to get onto a full course.

[leezer99]

Former USC coach Chris Zambri talking about speed and hitting the ball hard..."something all college coaches look at... almost the first thing they look at on the driving range is first how hard does a kid hit a ball"

Skip to 19:40

 

[pinsucker]

I think speed is also a function of mechanics. Letting you kids rip it is all good but without proper technique they won't max-out and/or the speed will be waisted on bad strike quality and impact alignments. You don't need insane speed to compete at the highest level. This statement might be controversial but hear me out. Let's assume that the maximum human potential for speed is long-drive competitors, they swing at 145/150+. Now let's take what would be considered at top-tier PGA Tour player who happens to be long as a good example, DJ is 29th on the list with a hair under 119 average. Some of this includes "easy" swings and/or not driver, let's say if we adjust he can swing driver while retaining acceptable levels of accuracy at 125, although I am probably generous. He is a solid 20mph below long-drive levels, but gains some accuracy, but of course some of this is due to equipment and different goals in golf. Nonetheless he is leaving roughly 15/20 mph on the table, to achieve better precision. To reinforce the significance of this that gap is as big as him and and the average scratch golfer (not talking about the college kids, the ones that are club level scratch). Now let's take someone at PGA Tour average, Morikawa, he swings at 113.5 average to be the 103rd fastest on Tour. He has proven he can compete by having better relative accuracy, what I mean by that is that he may be taking more club than DJ but he hits equivalently close with the longer club. So now we can see there is a tradeoff on the competitiveness scale, you can bomb super far like Bryson and thus have less yardage in which affords worse relative accuracy or you can be shorter but have higher accuracy, i.e., you can hit it as close from further away. 

 

Let's get back to long-drive, assume 10 mph is freak genetics and what not, that means that most people with technique perfectly tuned for speed and the correct fitness/workout regimen could max out their potential at 130/135, which is more than sufficient to be competitive on the PGA Tour. Now you can pick the approach you are more comfortable, maintaining perfect physical conditions and dialing the speed in a bit through technique to favor accuracy, or you can remove gym time and focus more on "skills" and control which would get you the necessary gain in relative accuracy to be competitive. What we see on tour makes sense, everyone hits the ball farther, because anyone with the correct dedication can do the workouts, it is "simply" a question of time, effort, and dedication. On the flip side, taking the "skill" route is more touchy you need to have the correct swing style to favor increased accuracy beyond what most of your world-class peers can already do, and you still need to put in as much if not more effort into honing your accuracy to levels that let you be competitive.

 

TLDR; my point is that anyone that doesn't have a physical limitation or is too old, can reach top-end PGA levels of speed by working out sufficiently and tuning technique for speed, given that true speed freaks (long-drive competitors_ swing so much faster than the top pros. The issue is to be able to have enough accuracy and the other skills (short-game, putting, course management, mental fortitude) to make it. The trend we see makes sense, it is significantly more fool-proof to get more distance simply by doing the correct working out, lifestyle modifications, and a few technique tweaks than by spending countless hours learning to be more accurate than the most accurate golfers on the planet.

[tiger1873]

Everyone wants to think they can develop a pga pro. 
 

speed is a genetics thing you either have it or you don’t. Sure you can do a development program gain and 2 or 3 miles an hour of club head speed.

 

maybe you can get 5-10 yards with that off the tee but the reality is that isn’t going make a big difference in your score unless your borderline able to hit greens in the first place.

 

same thing with accuracy the best players are just going to be more accurate naturally. 
 

I only say this because I see a lot kids neither fast or accurate and parents just think spending money at academy or training will get them there. This especially true with girls probably more then boys.

Edited August 22, 2020 by tiger1873

[heavy_hitter]

On 8/22/2020 at 8:51 AM, tiger1873 said:

Everyone wants to think they can develop a pga pro. 
 

speed is a genetics thing you either have it or you don’t. Sure you can do a development program gain and 2 or 3 miles an hour of club head speed.

 

maybe you can get 5-10 yards with that off the tee but the reality is that isn’t going make a big difference in your score unless your borderline able to hit greens in the first place.

 

same thing with accuracy the best players are just going to be more accurate naturally. 
 

I only say this because I see a lot kids neither fast or accurate and parents just think spending money at academy or training will get them there. This especially true with girls probably more then boys.

 

I used to think this.  You can absolutely teach speed, power, distance.  You can get bigger, faster, stronger to compete in golf just like you can in football.  My kid is a perfect example.  TPI and Super Speeds.  Biggest change was just due to getting stronger in the weight room as well as working on stability.  He has gone from a short knocker to way above average over the last 8 months.  8 Months ago he was Driver 3W/5W maybe 4i into a 400+ yard par 4.  Now he is Driver GW-9i most times.  Went from right around 96 average swing speed to 105 mpg swing speed overnight.  His coach feels he can get it to over 110 by the end of the year.  Had this covid thing not happened he would probably be closer to 110 right now.  His average distance this weekend was 272.125 off the tee on measured shots.  8 months ago he was averaging 245ish.

Edited August 24, 2020 by heavy_hitter

[BloctonGolf11]

The idea that you can't teach speed is an archaic belief. Are some kids blessed with greater natural speed than others; absolutely, human genetics works like that. However, with discipline and the right training mentality vast improvement can be made in club head speed. Speed is a product of strength, flexibility, and proper mechanics. If you work on those three things you will get faster, simple as that.

[tiger1873]

1 hour ago, BloctonGolf11 said:

The idea that you can't teach speed is an archaic belief. Are some kids blessed with greater natural speed than others; absolutely, human genetics works like that. However, with discipline and the right training mentality vast improvement can be made in club head speed. Speed is a product of strength, flexibility, and proper mechanics. If you work on those three things you will get faster, simple as that.

 

 

There is a limit in speed everyone can obtain.  Most boys are going to be able to gain enough speed to hit a driver close to 300 yards with today's technology.  That is more then enough to do well at most distances with golf.

 

I see another story though when it comes to girls. Most them will not be able to hit it past 250 yards no matter what they do. The sad truth is a lot girls will never reach even reach 90 mph in speed.  Defiantly will not be above 100 mph which is a major advantage in the LPGA. 

 

 

[iteachgolf]

On 8/22/2020 at 8:51 AM, tiger1873 said:

Everyone wants to think they can develop a pga pro. 
 

speed is a genetics thing you either have it or you don’t. Sure you can do a development program gain and 2 or 3 miles an hour of club head speed.

 

maybe you can get 5-10 yards with that off the tee but the reality is that isn’t going make a big difference in your score unless your borderline able to hit greens in the first place.

 

same thing with accuracy the best players are just going to be more accurate naturally. 
 

I only say this because I see a lot kids neither fast or accurate and parents just think spending money at academy or training will get them there. This especially true with girls probably more then boys.

Not even close to accurate.  Can give multiple accounts of elite golfers who as adults added 10+ mph to their swings.   I’ve watched Karoline Tuttle make the same transformation in the last year (88mph to 98mph when going after it). Have zero doubt she will be over 100 I’m the future.  Phillip Knowles after being a top amateur and college golfer with a 158-160mph ball speed is now able to swing 117 with a ballspeed of 175mph two years out of college.  Have also had tour players improve GIR numbers by 10+% and massively improve accuracy and their bank accounts.  
 

your line of thinking is an excuse and a cop out 

[tiger1873]

12 minutes ago, iteachgolf said:

Not even close to accurate.  Can give multiple accounts of elite golfers who as adults added 10+ mph to their swings.   I’ve watched Karoline Tuttle make the same transformation in the last year (88mph to 98mph when going after it). Have zero doubt she will be over 100 I’m the future.  Phillip Knowles after being a top amateur and college golfer with a 158-160mph ball speed is now able to swing 117 with a ballspeed of 175mph two years out of college.  Have also had tour players improve GIR numbers by 10+% and massively improve accuracy and their bank accounts.  
 

your line of thinking is an excuse and a cop out 

 

I seen  Karoline Tuttle play I would always say has had potential for speed. In her case she was never really slow to begin with either.  The average girl out there there will never reach 90 mph because they simply are not tall and strong enough.  If they did the LPGA would have a faster average than 94 mph.  The average girl is probaly more likely topping out in the 80's. Still more then enough for them to play good golf but a good chance there going to be in trouble playing the longer tournaments for sure.

 

With Boys it's totally different  most them will easily have enough speed to be above 100mph  but even then 115-120 is kind of above average speed.  It doesn't matter either because most boys will be long enough off the tee anyways.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by tiger1873

[iteachgolf]

14 minutes ago, tiger1873 said:

 

I seen  Karoline Tuttle play I would always say has had potential for speed. In her case she was never really slow to begin with either.  The average girl out there there will never reach 90 mph because they simply are not tall and strong enough.  If they did the LPGA would have a faster average than 94 mph.  The average girl is probaly more likely topping out in the 80's. Still more then enough for them to play good golf but a good chance there going to be in trouble playing the longer tournaments for sure.

 

With Boys it's totally different  most them will easily have enough speed to be above 100mph  but even then 115-120 is kind of above average speed.  It doesn't matter either because most boys will be long enough off the tee anyways.

 

 

The average speed is 94 mph because mechanics in general are poor in women’s golf.  Karoline is very tall or super strong.  And you missed the point.  They gained 10mph. Not 2-3. Most people never come close to their max potential and have plenty of room to gain, male or female.   
 

Have very petite HS senior who went from 84mph and 185 yard drives to 93mph and 240 yard drives in 2 months.  Everyone told her she was too skinny and needed to gain weight to add any speed.  Again it’s a cop out and an excuse

[leezer99]

1 hour ago, iteachgolf said:

The average speed is 94 mph because mechanics in general are poor in women’s golf.  Karoline is very tall or super strong.  And you missed the point.  They gained 10mph. Not 2-3. Most people never come close to their max potential and have plenty of room to gain, male or female.   
 

Have very petite HS senior who went from 84mph and 185 yard drives to 93mph and 240 yard drives in 2 months.  Everyone told her she was too skinny and needed to gain weight to add any speed.  Again it’s a cop out and an excuse

 

I am so glad you are back.

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

1 hour ago, iteachgolf said:

The average speed is 94 mph because mechanics in general are poor in women’s golf.  Karoline is very tall or super strong.  And you missed the point.  They gained 10mph. Not 2-3. Most people never come close to their max potential and have plenty of room to gain, male or female.   
 

Have very petite HS senior who went from 84mph and 185 yard drives to 93mph and 240 yard drives in 2 months.  Everyone told her she was too skinny and needed to gain weight to add any speed.  Again it’s a cop out and an excuse

Curious what you believe a minimum level of speed an average person could get to (100mph for man?), and doesn't starting point relative to top potential determine how much someone can improve?  Kinda like everyone can run a 8 min mile with training, but hard to improve much if you're already in great shape and training and running 5 min mile, no matter what you do.

[MB19]

5 minutes ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

Curious what you believe a minimum level of speed an average person could get to (100mph for man?), and doesn't starting point relative to top potential determine how much someone can improve?  Kinda like everyone can run a 8 min mile with training, but hard to improve much if you're already in great shape and training and running 5 min mile, no matter what you do.

It is maybe more akin to a 40 time, IMO.  I've never seen a kid improve from a 5:30 miler to a 4:30 miler, but I have seen a kid go from running low 4.8 range to high 4.4 range from age 14 to 19.  I'm definitely not saying anyone can do it, but fast-twitch mechanisms can have techniques and training applied to make people faster/more powerful.  The 40 and shuttle at the NFL combine are great displays of this.  One can see kids who were recruited at 16 or 17 running in the 4.6 range getting down to 4.4, and this doesn't happen without a speed coach being involved.  Sure, turning in these times in a sterile environment isn't the same as performing in game conditions--but it can mean the difference between being a 1st day pick and a 3rd day pick.  Because the golf swing (specifically the drive) is performed in an environment with one person hitting a stagnant ball, I really consider it to be a cousin of sorts to running a 40.  In a perfect world, the drive would be compared to a kickoff but IMO it is much more difficult to train a person to kick the ball into touchback range than it is to swing a club +10 mph faster.  

[ConcernedBoutCOVID]

23 minutes ago, MB19 said:

It is maybe more akin to a 40 time, IMO.  I've never seen a kid improve from a 5:30 miler to a 4:30 miler, but I have seen a kid go from running low 4.8 range to high 4.4 range from age 14 to 19.  I'm definitely not saying anyone can do it, but fast-twitch mechanisms can have techniques and training applied to make people faster/more powerful.  The 40 and shuttle at the NFL combine are great displays of this.  One can see kids who were recruited at 16 or 17 running in the 4.6 range getting down to 4.4, and this doesn't happen without a speed coach being involved.  Sure, turning in these times in a sterile environment isn't the same as performing in game conditions--but it can mean the difference between being a 1st day pick and a 3rd day pick.  Because the golf swing (specifically the drive) is performed in an environment with one person hitting a stagnant ball, I really consider it to be a cousin of sorts to running a 40.  In a perfect world, the drive would be compared to a kickoff but IMO it is much more difficult to train a person to kick the ball into touchback range than it is to swing a club +10 mph faster.  

Very good points and interesting perspective

[iteachgolf]

1 hour ago, ConcernedBoutCOVID said:

Curious what you believe a minimum level of speed an average person could get to (100mph for man?), and doesn't starting point relative to top potential determine how much someone can improve?  Kinda like everyone can run a 8 min mile with training, but hard to improve much if you're already in great shape and training and running 5 min mile, no matter what you do.

Average male should easily be able to get over 100mph.   I’d argue it’s more like 110-115mph for the average male.  Most wont work hard enough and don’t wanna change what would need to be changed to get there.  Again most never come close to their potential, so yes starting point matters but most have a ton of room for improvement.  
 

Julian Suri was already long and has gained over a full club of distance and about 15mph ball speed over last 4 years (24-28).  These are elite players.  The average hack has way more inefficiencies and way worse mechanics 

[leezer99]

Top 25 driver distance on pga tour.  Means nothing to junior golf but I was bored this morning.

 

[MB19]

2 hours ago, leezer99 said:

Top 25 driver distance on pga tour.  Means nothing to junior golf but I was bored this morning.

 

TM's dominance is stunning to me, as is Cobra's and Titleist's share of this top 25.