Pace of Play and Etiquette

[straight crooked]

@Pepperturbo, this will be my last comment here because our digression has gone beyond the purposes for which this thread was created and, at this point, we are all just generating useless notifications for those still following this thread. To the extent you agree with what I say, great. To the extent you disagree, we will have to agree to disagree.
First, kudos to you. Building and, moreover, maintaining a profitable company for 40 years is no small feat. I too am climbing the ranks of corporate America (albeit, in a slightly different way than you). I too am educated--I have both a collegiate degree and two graduate degrees. I too have begun to travel the world and have seen places and done things many only see in magazines or movies. So while I certainly won't claim that I have as much experience working with people as you (if for no other reason than age), I do have some. I routinely interact with people from both the C-suite and the ground floor.
We will have to disagree that those characteristics (respect and etiquette) no longer breed themselves. You may disagree that in today's society respect breeds respect, but I'm sure that we can both agree that disrespect certainly cannot breed respect. That idea is illusory at best. So if disrespect cannot breed respect, as I contend, and respect cannot breed respect, as you contend, maybe respect is a trait that has come to its natural end. I, certainly, would like to think otherwise. To that extent, I will continue to advocate to those children I interact with that respect breeds respect. I think the better lesson (i.e., better than "respect is earned, not given" or "give disrespect back to 'em") is to teach children to focus more on what they have control over and less on the distraction of the receipt of disrespect. You can dominate someone on the golf course (and in corporate America) who is disrespectful while still showing that same person respect.
I agree that the dynamic of parenting has changed both from when you were a child and when I was a child. The way I was raised was much different than the way most children are raised now. Again, I disagree as to the natural disposition of most adolescents (especially in the 8-14 year old range, which was the topic of the original post). From my experience working with kids, the vast majority are inherently polite, respectful, and responsive to criticism (as long as it is done constructively). I do agree with you that children today are far more impersonal than when I was growing up (and certainly even more so than when you were). But I don't think the change has placed the majority of children in the vindictive, petty bucket that a previous poster attempts to put them in. I still believe that most children (again, in the 8-14 year old range) have a predisposition to be respectful and considerate. I do think that the methods and means of encouraging those children to foster those traits has changed dramatically. No longer do we live in a "because I said so" world where children accept adult instruction at face value. Instead, we live in a world where children are increasingly inquisitive. To further compound the communication issue, the method of communication with children has become far more impersonal as children become desensitized to the abhorrent behavior we adults put on display. Thus, while I agree the method of instilling these positive attributes in children has changed, I disagree that it is impossible to in fact instill those very attributes. Perhaps this is my optimism and being a product of a "softer" generation. Again, I don't dispute that there are outliers--there certainly are. But, again, I attribute most of those outliers to being the product of those who raise them. Parents who are vindictive and petty will, naturally, raise children who are vindictive and petty.
Perhaps I spoke in too broad of terms. I agree, optimism is not a requirement to play good golf. But, as you state, optimism affects good judgment. And, again as you state, good judgment is a requirement of good golf. Therefore, vis-a-vis optimism is a key component of good golf.
I also agree that it is our job to teach our youth both how to play and how to enter into and excel in the workforce. Winning and good etiquette/sportsmanship are not mutually exclusive, however. That is true in both golf and in corporate America. You can still be respectful without letting yourself get run over. It's okay to speak up. But, when you do speak, do so respectfully. It's okay to disagree. But, when you do disagree, do so respectfully. You can be respectful and courteous without being "soft." It's my position that the best leaders, and the best golfers, understand that concept.
Perhaps my biggest point is that you can only change what is in your control. You don't have control over how others act. You don't have control over the respect, courtesy, or etiquette others show you. You do have control over your actions and how you respond to the stimuli presented to you by others.
Again, however, my post was directed at children (8-14) and their response to external stimuli. I don't disagree that in a private-club (I am a member, so I understand the dynamic) inter-club (I play in these, so I understand the dynamic) match, adults will do whatever it takes to win. But, in response to your point, the outcome is the same. Control what you have control over--yourself. Accept the fact that you can't control what you don't have control over--others. Do your best to tune them out. If it rises to the level of you needing to confront them about their behavior, do it. But, do it respectfully. You won't gain any respect from them by treating them with disrespect. You won't get them to display good etiquette by failing to do the same yourself. It doesn't take an advanced degree in psychology to understand that.

[kekoa]

I'm curious. If Player A moves on to the next hole (and is the marker for player B) right after holing out, how does he confirm Player B's score and so on? Do these tournaments have scorekeepers following each group?

 

 

[leezer99]

My son's group got put on the clock last week on the 5th hole so they hurried up and caught up with the group ahead of them. The way he described the round was like an accordion where they'd bunch up, spread out, bunch up, and so on. It was a qualifying event with 40+ boys playing over 7,100 yards on a course that was changed three days prior to the actual competition and my son's group was the last boys group to go out... what did the tournament director think would happen?

In another tour he plays on they insist on the 2x2 method and remind kids to head to the next tee once the first two kids have holed out throughout the round. I've never seen the scenario OP described where a kid was distracting in going from green to tee but I assume my kid would say something if it bothered him and I would hope that if my son were the one being distracting that they would say something to him.

And if you really want to get in someone's head I go with the old faithful, "do you inhale or exhale while stroking your putt?" question during the round.

I will add that the most annoying thing I see out there on course are parents that cheer for their kids very loudly for making a putt or chipping it close.

[Bisonpitcher]

My son was playing in a group of 3 (9-11 age group) in a tournament a few weeks back. Playing forward tees (not shortened for age). They were the second group out. First group was playing very quickly and opened up a 1 hole gap on our group by the 5th tee. As we were walking to the 5th tee, one of the assistant pros came out and started tellling our kids that they had fallen behind and they needed to catch up. She never asked what time we teed off (we were exactly 50 minutes in on the 5th tee, with a 450 yard par 5 1st hole), just saw the group ahead of us on 6 and assumed our group was slow. Didn't seem to notice that the group behind us was putting on 3 at the same time and had never had to wait on us. All 3 boys in group started literally jogging to their shots, taking no practice swings and hitting because they were worried about getting a penalty. After the 5th hole I just told the group from afar that they didn't need to try to stay up with the kids in front of them as they were playing a good pace and the group behind them was over a hole behind. Boys calmed down and went back to normal pace after that. Finished in 1:48 for 9 holes.

[tiger1873]

They don’t and that is why it is such a problem when tours tell kids do this.

you supposed to just trust them according to tour officials.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

"I will add that the most annoying thing I see out there on course are parents that cheer for their kids very loudly for making a putt or chipping it close."

 

I told you I was sorry. :-)

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

One issue I have is. 10 kids in a tournament. They will split them 2,2,3,3. Well the first threesome always loses the 2 twosome (unless OB balls), but the official will say catch up.

I did ask a few weeks ago. How does a threesome catch a twosome?

[munny11]

You make a good point. The kids leaving early will not know how many putts the player left took. They just ask the player what they scored on the last hole.

[Noles]

A player can begin to walk to the next tee and still pay attention enough to know what his or her fellow competitor scored on a hole.

[hangontight]

Does this get better the older they get? I say a special prayer of thanks when we get paired and I see that its just kid (and caddie if USKG).....not 4 golf carts worth of grandparents, uncles, friends. I am sure we all have certain kids in your kids age group who everyone knows they will be rolling deep - getting that draw is out of our control, but not favorable. haha.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

I can stay it does get better with the older boys. In some groups you might not see anyone. If my son and daughter are playing I forecaddy for my daughter.

Even though it gets better it doesn't go away. Some parents (for whatever) decide to stand at the tee box. Then 5 minutes later ask did you see my son's ball. I forecaddy for the entire group, so I dont mind, but its make yourself useful while you're out here at least.

You will see a kid that is probably only payed in a few tournaments and his parents don't have golf cart etiquette. Example: Move only when the whole group is done. Dont sit in the fairway watching your son putt from his second shot location.

The girls I'm still getting use to. If it was boys tournament I would know what to expect. Girl tournaments are really a mix bag for us so far. The last tournament was the worst. My daughters last USKG :-(. Mom was the caddy. Dad was in a cart. All three were screaming at each other by the 2 nd hole. Dad was still parked at the first green and wouldnt move while the girls tee off on the second. The girl's coach showed up on the 5th hole. The girl was a complete trainwreck emotionally. She had been crying for two holes.

The group behind us had like 12 carts.

[BFD3]

In our local tour, no spectators were allowed for kids over 10 years old until this year. They made an exception this summer so parents could make sure the kids were socially distancing. Turns out the parents congregate more than the kids.

[leezer99]

One local tour my son plays on has a one spectator limit per player and I know that at FCG Worlds this year they have a 2 spectator per player limit. One year my son played in a US Kids Regional event out of state so it was just the two of us. In our group we had 32 spectators (there were 10+ carts and people walking) and none were there for him. It was ridiculous... kids screaming, carts moving or beeping, food bags rustling, spectators in the way, etc. It was awful.

[Noles]

Parents in carts drive me nuts. Some are so clueless where they park them. My son was in a Hurricane tournament yesterday. He was in the final group and I was the only one following. As soon as all the balls are found and approach shots are hit, I head out to the next fairway to the landing area. I watch nothing around the green. The group in front of us had 4 carts and a few walkers. The carts kept lagging back and staying in the landing area when the next group was hitting. A ball would land in the fairway and they would seem shocked and then drive ahead. It happened several times. On the 8th hole I had to say something to them because the landing area was so narrow that the boys didn't want to hit. Again, they seemed surprised that there was another group on the course besides their kids.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

This same thing happened to us this past weekend at Penn State. 3 kids and 6 carts in front of us on day 2. The one cart had a grandfather and the mother in it. They were constantly in the landing zone. On the 11th hole I asked them if they knews kids were behind them cause the boys were waiting for them to get out of the fairway. I think its the last time I seen them actually.

Honestly, you can see some great golf from the fairway (when driving) and greens (approach shots). You dont need to be 10 feet away.

[hangontight]

Yes, annoying and has driven me crazy on several occasions. But golf , like a lot of sports, can be a family affair which is a good thing. I think the responsibility should fall on the tour director/manager to inform & educate. Obviously that is a stretch so as in most cases if its bothering me that much a tactful approach can usually go a long way.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

My only comment would be most tour directors are busy. I can see something that spells out speculator walking and cart rules. Even though most already do this.

I think it just stupid people TBH.

[heavy_hitter]

That drives me nuts. Carts in every tournament should be cart path only. Course needs to be responsible by telling the parents when they purchase the cart.

[tiger1873]

I thought most tournaments have rules for cart path only. There is no reason for a spectator to be in the fairway (with cart or not) unless you have to have to help find a ball. Even then the kids are usually better at finding it then most parents.

Regardless when It happens I can usually flag down an official to put a stop to that crap.

[heavy_hitter]

You know me. I am not afraid to say something myself. Some spectators just don't understand golf because they don't play or aren't around it enough. I think most tours do have cart path only rules.

[TripleBogeysrbetter]

Yea. Its usually a standard phrase. "Excuse the next group is on the tee box and about to hit." Translation You need to move you sorry A$$!

[clinkinfo]

You guys are teaching the opposite of what most junior tours are trying to instill. The junior tours push these kids to play fast, let’s be honest, many courses don’t even want kids there for large chunks of time. I think you’d be better off just letting them play the way their tours want them to play, not the way you think is right.