Jump to content

Do you throw or twist?


Recommended Posts

The pic with just the club and Hogan removed is one that helped increase my understanding and awareness of what actually needs to happen in transition. I wanted to see exactly WHERE I needed to move the club. The HOW To, explaining feels and body parts movements, can often be very subjective and interpreted many different ways. Understanding how the club should move in space just gives one an additional perspective that helps in the experimentation process.

Ben Hogan once said "experimenting is my enjoyment". If golf could be laid out in a universal, fool-proof, detailed step-by-step process easily understood by anyone, the planet would be filled with plus handies. Enjoy the journey!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

This is not credible at all.

You clearly have very superficial and flawed ideas about slicefixer’s teachng. There are no mysteriet, no vagueness, and the kids he teach all have exceptionally good swings. There is, however great attention to detail and very explicit principles. You are also wrong about one or to of the others you mention, but I’ll refrain from going into detail since I don’t know them firsthand.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TexasTurf - You are 180 degrees off on your comprehension of my statement when I said; "Maybe too much information. Maybe too mysteriously vague on certain details. I hope it's helpful and thought-provoking. If you have questions, let me know..." You see, after I made the statement that maybe I provided 'too much information' my very next sentence offered the exact opposite point of view when I said that maybe I was 'too mysteriously vague on certain details'. In no way was that meant to suggest that I was 'purposely' being vague. I see that my very last sentence was also likely mystifying incomprehensible to you, because you had no questions...

If you are expecting someone [anyone] to provide you with an exacting tailor-made for you, nuts-and-bolts stupidly simple-to-understand, pop-a-pill and go birdie or eagle every hole, then you need to take up another hobby. You remind me of the fella who had never played golf before (even though he claimed he does play the game) and is invited to join his boss and two important clients for a round of golf in a couple days. So, with just one day to learn how to swing a golf club and play the game he took a lesson and was crazed and infuriated to discover that an one hour lesson didn't spontaneously provide him 'the goods' to not look like a fool to the others.

As a closing thought, please don't take what I have said the wrong way! Godspeed on your search...

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm ambidextrous or rather the opposite of ambidexterous. I'll alternate on which hand I use depending on the task, but don't use either hand particularly well, lol.

I've been working on this and found that starting the downswing with a combination of left wrist flexion and right shoulder external rotation is a good thought for me. Found that if I have a good backswing just have to think left wrist/right shoulder and the flexion & external rotation happen automatically when trying to use the two in combination.

Hardest parts for me have really been getting a) getting a consistently good backswing and b) changing my pivot. Both my backswing and pivot had been jacked up to fit previous swing flaws, lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're here to help, fine. Most of us that are decent amateurs are here to help too. I am not going to respond to sarcasm. I read "Throw or Twist" as an extension of the grip. I had an opinion about the grip, one that I ACTUALLY learned from "Ben Hogan." Accuracy is important. In Ben Hogan's book Five Lessons he says "In golf there are certain things you must do quite precisely, where being approximately right is not right enough. The grip is one of these areas where being half right accomplishes nothing." Hogan also says "he changed his Long thumb because it let the club drop down too far at the top of the back-swing and it was rough to get his timing right."

Was this thread meant for only you to post opinions?

Why did I use books instead of a teacher? Too many teachers lack inter-personal skills and different teaching methods for different learning abilities. I am not a teacher, but a good self-taught golfer that shares my experience based on hitting well over 10k balls that got me to a mid-hi single digit in under 5yrs, 2yrs later a low index of 2, starting at 40yrs old. And still at 70yrs old carding low-mid 70 scores. Yep, not everyone agrees with either of us and it would be nice to get back to substance.

  • TSR2 10° Ventus Velo TR Blue 58S
  • TSR2 15° Talamonti PD80R
  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
  • SC/CA Monterey
  • DASH -ProV1x
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@scott_Donald - Thanks for that video. I don't usually follow Brandel Chamblee so I was surprised when I heard his views on certain aspects of golf. I especially liked his addicted to Launch Monitor data remark, and nothing equates to feeling the swing on the golf course and mechanics that still uses Hogan and Snead today as swing mechanic examples. Thanks again.
  • TSR2 10° Ventus Velo TR Blue 58S
  • TSR2 15° Talamonti PD80R
  • T200 17' 2i Tensei AV Raw White Hybrid 95S
  • T100 3i & 4i MMT 85S
  • T100 5i to 9i MMT 105S
  • T100 PW, SM9 F52/12, M58/8, PX Wedge 120S
  • SC/CA Monterey
  • DASH -ProV1x
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you ever studied a golf trick-shot artist and tried to figure out how he can swing a golf club with a rope, wire or a linked chain for the shaft? Have you ever tried to hit a golf ball using the Medicus dual hinge training club? The technique in learning how to skillfully swing any one of these are all the same. It has virtually nothing to do with setup, spine angle, shoulder alignment, grip, body parts, release point, etc., etc. It has almost everything to do with clearly understanding how you would propel (swing) a fist-size ball on the end of a super strong, highly flexible tiny diameter wire...or better yet how you would swing a clubhead with that flexible wire replacing the clubshaft. Think about that. I'll leave that thought with you so hopefully it will prompt you to think about how you [should] propel the golf club from the transition of your golf swing. There's something very important about how you start the downswing that you must understand - if you start to propel the golf club from the top incorrectly the chances are pretty much nil that you will somehow be able to save or correct it from becoming badly discombobulated. A little mishap at the beginning of the downswing (from the transition) creates a much bigger mess with each passing foot of travel. Like a bullet that has been fired from the barrel of a gun, there is no checked swing to save it, or put it back from whence it came. Here's your tip (which I mentioned in a previous post about the short thumb versus the long thumb): The golf club should be pulled longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, not a radial push force on the side of the shaft by either the left thumb or the right forefinger.What I mentioned above (quoted in bold) is admittedly somewhat void of specifics. Lets clear that up ... and I'll try not to be vague.

I mentioned the trick-shot artist swinging a clubhead on a flexible rope or wire, and swinging a Medicus dual hinge training club as examples of understanding how one would best swing a clubhead with a flexible wire replacing the clubshaft. I asked that people think about how they should best propel the golf club from the transition of their golf swing. If you chose to make a direct hand path (from the top at transition) straight to the bottom (representing impact) it should be clear to most people that the flexible wire (replacing the clubshaft) between the grip and clubhead would fall limp and not propel the clubhead until all the slack was removed...and even then nothing good or worthwhile would happen and any semblance of a 'swing' would have been lost. In fact, it would probably jerk ('jerk' is actually a physics term meaning the rate at which an object's acceleration changes with respect to time) on the clubhead when the slack in the flexible wire became taught...somewhere in time during the downswing. Of course during this time the golfer is doing what he does to manipulate and muscle the golf club down to the golf ball in a heavy, awkward, brutal demonstration of how not to swing a golf club...as the results most always display. However, if you [hopefully instead] chose to make a wide hand path (from the top at transition) along a circular arc (where has this been mentioned before?) then lo and behold, by golly, to our amazement we have created a way to have a taught flexible wire for the entire travel time (with no jerk I might add) from the very top (at transition) all the way through impact. And, that my friends is like capturing lightning in a bottle!

The quicker you are able to get it swinging, the better chance you have of making a pure golf swing with wonderful results. That's true with anything you are attempting to swing. Do you remember me mentioning about learning how to 'quickly' get a gyroscopic hand exerciser ball going, or spinning a rope/lasso, or even better would be learning how to swing a flail efficiently and effectively? All these things are best made to swing if you know how to get it started swinging quicker - right away. Give a small child a weight on the end of a string and they might struggle to get the weight swinging in orbit right away. Let them do it for a day or two and they'll become an expert at getting it going right away. Is there a technique to it? You bet! A lot of it is 'feel', but you might need to be taught first how best to accomplish it. Getting that gyroscopic hand exerciser ball going quickly can be tricky, especially when done in the non-dominant hand. Is there a technique to it? You bet! Once again, a lot of it is 'feel', but you might need to be taught first how best to accomplish it. Do you see a pattern? Once you figure out 'how' (what is needed) to do it, then it's all (100%) about feel. One last comment about getting the swing started quickly. I don't mean moving the object (club, rock, flail) quickly - I mean actually getting it swinging in orbit as soon as possible. There's a difference!

Your success in getting something (anything) swinging or spinning is established by the very initial beginnings of the activity. If you start out trying to swing something with a fast jerk or non-swinging type manipulative motion it's doubtful whatever you're trying to swing is suddenly just going to start magically swinging. You upset any chance of swinging from the get-go. So, what do you do. It's best that you stop and start all over again. With a golf swing we don't have the benefit of starting the downswing and checking our swing and starting all over again (unless of course you are Tiger Woods!). That is why it is so very important to get the golf club started swinging right away, as soon as possible. It's not that difficult. A few things we've already discussed definitely help make it easier. A wide downswing that smoothly pulls the golf club longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc, a short left thumb that doesn't exert force to the side of the clubshaft (grip), refraining from using the trail forefinger from exerting force to the side of the clubshaft (grip), not jerking the club down. All these things are meant to help get the golf club smoothly moving (swinging/propelled) into a circular orbit with no disturbance that would upset the swinging motion. Have you ever wanted to layup short of a water hazard and swung smoothly and to your amazement hit the ball so pure it went 20 yards into the hazard, and it even had a different impact sound and more of a penetrating ball flight? You probably experienced what a pure swing feels like! And you want to experience that wonderful feeling all the time, right?

Let me mention briefly what a generally direct hand path (not good) from transition to impact actually entails. It brings about a steep angle-of-attack, a narrow impact zone, an overwhelming need to release early, a hideous need to overuse the forearms and hands to manipulate the golf club, and the strong tendency of having a badly timed golf swing.

I like a wider forward swing arc. I think it is a necessity if you want to 'swing' the golf club (which is how a golf club is designed to be used) ... and if you want to 'swing' the golf club you better start it swinging from the very beginning of the downswing by pulling (propelling) the golf club longitudinally along the axis of the clubshaft in a circular arc (that means wide as opposed to narrow) to keep that imaginary flexible wire (as a replacement clubshaft) taught without a hint of slack.

With a wider forward swing arc the clubhead's angle-of-ascent into the golf ball is shallow (meaning much better compression and spin loft) and the clubhead's directional angle-of-approach to the golf ball is down the target line. You don't need to make a purposeful 'shallowing' move when you have a wider forward swing arc, which is just another chance to upset the swinging motion. If you were attempting to start swinging a rock on the end of a string and were told to shallow the swing plane, don't you think merging that move into the early swinging action might upset the swing and might even cause the string to slacken and 'jerk'?

Having a wide forward swing arc the clubhead will travel on a shallow approach like an airplane landing on a runway and that will direct the clubhead's energy more into the golf ball. If you are wondering about how a wide forward swing arc affects that mysterious feature called 'lag', then you are about to be served icing on your cake and a big scoop of your favorite Blue Bell ice cream too! A shallow and wide arc actually encourages a late release. Yep! You might have thought the exact opposite, but as Ben Hogan once said; "Reverse every natural instinct and do the opposite of what you are inclined to do, and you will probably come very close to having a perfect golf swing."

image.png  

 

PS - Have you ever noticed the most defining characteristic of K.J. Choi's swing is his transition from the top of the backswing into the downswing. As he starts down, his arms and hands move outward in what is often called an over-the-top or "casting" motion. In reality, all he is doing is setting himself to swing down on a wide circular arc. Some [incorrectly in my opinion] think he is intentionally setting the club to swing on an outside-to-in path that will produce his preferred left-to-right ball flight, however there are much better ways to get a fade ball flight than to swing on an outside-to-in path, which would most likely cause a weak shot starting left with less compression due to an abnormally open clubface that would be required at impact.

  • Like 2

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Uh, no - not really. The two are really not associated at all.

Float loading, in my view, is almost a distinct un-linking and then a re-linking of the club via the cocking of the wrists, which adds an additional (artificial) motion and timing factor to the swing.

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a good drill & there's several good things in this. The idea of maintaining the flex of wrist & trail elbow into impact. The other is crunching angles and dropping chest to ball as a transitional move.. This is very significant and I continually fail to appreciate the power in this move. Was next to a guy last week at the range who pretty much swung like this. His #2i was good for 240 carry. Humbling. I continually struggle to simplify and get things as compact. When I do catch it in the bottle, pretty amazing how much easy power is at hand.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To Mark - who reached out via Private Message asking about using the 'short thumb' with the lead hand. (Hopefully this may help others.)

For most people (but not necessarily all people mind you) using a short thumb with the lead hand will encourage the lead wrist to remain neutral to slightly bowed and easier to rotate or twist through impact. On the other hand, using a long thumb will oftentimes prompt the lead wrist to extend or bend, causing the golfer to flip.

Give it a try with or without holding a club. Holding an imaginary golf club in your lead hand, [first] push your thumb fully outward (to make a 'long thumb') and look at how your wrist is shaped. Is it slightly cupped? Does it seem like it is easier to bend (flip) the wrist rather than to rotate or twist and bow the wrist? Now then, holding an imaginary golf club in your lead hand, pull your thumb fully inward (to make a 'short thumb') and look at how your wrist is shaped. Is it flat or slightly bowed. Does it seem like it is easier to rotate or twist and bow the wrist rather than to flip the wrist?

Here's something very much related to think about. When you swing a golf club on a horizontal plane, most people (but not necessarily all people mind you) find that how their lead forearm and wrist naturally rotates and twists to be quite gratifying and very much to their liking...and they wish their lead forearm and wrist behaved the same when they made a swing on an inclined plane. However, when they make a swing on an inclined plane they always (for some crazy reason) tend to flip. Also, some people (but not necessarily all people mind you) seem to like having the ball slightly above their feet because their forearm/wrist rotation usually happens more naturally. What do these conditions have in common? The answer is rather simple, but often overlooked. When making a swing even slightly on a more horizontally plane most people (but not necessarily all people mind you) tend to have less ulnar deviation (the forearm and hand are more inline with one another instead of the hand being arched downward) in their lead wrist - and this naturally makes for a shorter lead thumb ... and this in-turn prompts the forearm and wrist to stay inline with one another and rotate or twist as a structured unit instead of the two becoming disconnected (uncoordinated) and causing a flip. Another similarly related tidbit is - when you choke down on the grip a little it tends to better align the lead forearm and hand which naturally pulls he lead thumb inward (shorter) a little bit, encouraging the forearm and wrist to rotate or twist as a connected unit.

Sometimes the slightest change, something you would never think could make any real or meaningful difference, can make a very significant difference in how one swings a golf club. Lastly, one of my previous posts in this thread has a video of Shawn Clement demonstrating how the wrist action of a sound golf swing is like a baton twirl. Take a very close look at how the forearm, wrist and hand is aligned in terms of radial/ulnar deviation and how the thumb is in what would be considered a 'short thumb'.

I hope this helps!

  • Like 2

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a [public] reply to Rob H. concerning wrist action and Shawn Clement's baton twirl.

You can choose to use body rotation and angular (wrist hinge) momentum by using manipulative forearm/wrist/hand force to swing a golf club ... or you can use body rotation and angular (wrist hinge) momentum by using non-manipulative forearm/wrist/hand action to swing a golf club. The former could be called 'hitting' and the latter could be called 'swinging'. When you use contracted muscle strength to purposely 'manipulate' both the direction and the force of the golf club, you could say that you are 'hitting'. When you use soft and relaxed wrists that flow and 'react' to the momentum of the golf club, you could say that you are 'swinging'. The wrists are the focal point - the nucleus you might say, of how the golf swing will perpetuate and continue ... and will be the deciding factor of whether your actions end up producing a wonderful result or a disastrous result.

In terms of using a manipulative swing or a reactive swing, you best decide which one it will be because the two are not all-inclusive. The pretty swing, the effortless looking swing, the 'how does he do that' swing - is the swing where the player's wrists react to the momentum of the golf club. It is a 'players' swing, it is the type of swing that an experienced player has adopted. Not to say that a forced muscular hitting swing cannot produce excellent results, because it can...but it is not as pretty, is more difficult to time, will fade as you get older with age and is not as dependable in my view.

Shawn Clement's 'Baton Twirl' is an excellent representation of how the wrists should 'react' to the golf club's moving momentum. If you want to 'feel' lag you want to learn how to let the wrists react to the club, not the other way around by using force at the wrists to manipulate the club.

Those rare times when you felt the results of lag and the ball felt like it had flattened and stuck on the clubface and then soars through the air on a tight penetrating flight like it is controlled by NASA ... and you felt like you didn't swing hard at all or really didn't do anything other than just make a swing in an attempt to advance the ball ... your soft wrists most likely reacted to the momentum of the club instead of your wrists being used to create force. It's a different feel. It's a different way. It's a different process. It's a different mind-thought. It's worth learning! Soft wrists through the impact zone and let (allow) the club's momentum baton twirl (or 'roll over' is you prefer) your wrists. If you flip then you are forcing the club. Let the club's momentum roll over or twirl your wrists... 99% of amateurs try to force the club with contracted muscles (strength) via their wrists. Learn to 'swing' the club with soft wrists that react to the club's momentum and you will experience what it's like to truly swing a golf club with all the many good things that come about from it.

If you are used to exerting a high level of energy to swing manipulate the golf club now, changing to a wrist action that is a reaction to the momentum of the club will feel like you are exerting less than 50% the energy you are used to expending. It will take some getting used to, but seeing the amazing results helps the process along...

 

 

 

 

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

passing by and I fell into this rabbit hole

On threads like this if I read any further past two pages I cant no longer play golf

analysis leads to paralysis

just my 2 cents

I notice that a lot of golf teachers have their own theories about release type “A” vs release type “B” which leads to deeper complex discussions

which is okay for those who like it but I think there is a lot of variation out there for release types and doesn t need to be pigeon holed

carry on gents

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Watch this Mike Malaska video and pay particular interest to his wrists. At 25:50 watch how Mike's wrist action is just like Shawn Clement's 'Baton Twirl' (video two posts up). Mike is giving you a perfect demonstration of what it takes to produce speed in your golf swing ... and that comes primarily from the arms and in particular from the wrist action. Let (allow) the club's momentum to twirl your wrists instead of trying to force your wrists to swing the golf club. It's 180 degrees from what you are probably trying to do. Let your arms get the club moving and then just let (allow) the club's weight and momentum to baton twirl the club through impact. Soft, relaxed wrists is what is needed. You may need to gently guide your wrists to twirl over at first, but that becomes second nature just like anything else after a while. Hold the club horizontally and casually swing the club with your arms and 'let' the club's weight and momentum baton twirl your wrists. Let (allow) your lower forearms and wrists be free agents to the club's impetus. Your job is to not have the wrists exert any force or influence that would interfere with a free-flowing club-momentum-induced baton twirl of your wrists.

 

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, forearm rotation is needed for a proper lag and release sequencing.
FIrm or soft hands is a matter of choice, though. Soft hands is needed if you want what slicefixer labelled a "slinger release", which is close to a stall & flip type of release. Think Luis Oostheusen. Or you can turn it over a bit more gradual and with more leverage like e.g. Dustin Johnson does. Similar to what slicefixer called a leveraged release - and what Kelvin Miyahira associated with a "drive-hold" release.
In any case the hands has to be moved by the shoulders ... which he demonstrates but does not explain very well. And the shoulder rotation must be pretty well designed to avoid a premature release .... and that takes a pretty decent lower body action and transition. Good rotation is a lot easier said than done for many.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let (allow) the club's momentum to twirl your wrists instead of trying to force your wrists to swing the golf club. 

 

This will result in lack of control. Very easy to stray off path this way.

I prefer the lead wrist to be steady (with some flexion and ulnar abduction). Big bones and muscles must control the smaller bones and muscles.

Allowing the clubs momentum will reverse guidance.

However, the club must twist to be square at impact. IMHO (for me) this rotary action is best accomplished the scapula and the rotator cuff.  Blended in with supination of the fore arm. The motion starts from the ToS. It is gradual. Other benefit is a better width throughout the swing.  

Of course there are many ways to skin a cat. 

 

 

Edited by baudi
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, baudi said:

Let (allow) the club's momentum to twirl your wrists instead of trying to force your wrists to swing the golf club. 

 

This will result in lack of control. Very easy to stray off path this way.

I prefer the lead wrist to be steady (with some flexion and ulnar abduction). Big bones and muscles must control the smaller bones and muscles.

Allowing the clubs momentum will reverse guidance.

However, the club must twist to be square at impact. IMHO (for me) this rotary action is best accomplished by supinating the lead arm from the scapula.

The motion starts from the ToS. It is gradual. Other benefits are better width in the swing and improved downward action (crunch/squat).  

Of course there are many ways to skin a cat. 

 

 

Please explain how you would supinate your arm from the scapula.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can't.

Was changing this but not allowed due to issues on the forum. Quote should be (something) like this:   

This will result in lack of control. Very easy to stray off path this way.

I prefer the lead wrist to be steady (with some flexion and ulnar abduction). Big bones and muscles must control the smaller bones and muscles.

Allowing the clubs momentum will reverse guidance.

However, the club must twist to be square at impact. IMHO (for me) this rotary action is best accomplished the scapula and the rotator cuff.  Blended in with supination of the fore arm. The motion starts from the ToS. It is gradual. Other benefit is a better width througout the swing.  

Of course there are many ways to skin a cat. 

Edited by baudi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Carlito said:

Nothing new. I only want to bring this topic back to the front page. Basta! 

Nail_it, please go on.. thanks.

 

I've been asked about the condition (cupped, neutral/flat or bowed) of the lead wrist at the top of the swing. As most people know we see the tour pros with a whole gamut of lead wrist conditions at the top, from near max cupped to near max bowed ... and everything in-between. We even see a few tour players with a cupped lead wrist at impact, but very few...but that's an entirely different matter. 

 

Let's briefly talk about the bowed lead wrist fellows. What we see in most cases when the player bows his wrist at the top is that he uses primarily his body rotation and arm speed to swing the golf club (e.g. Dustin Johnson, Brooks Koepka, Jon Rahm, Arnold Palmer). We also see that they maintain their bowed wrist through impact as it becomes only slightly less bowed through the impact zone. And, they almost always exhibit more than average shaft lean compared to non-bowed players. These guys are usually big, strong men that swing the club with bowed wrists from the top through impact. (Lee Trevino had a moderately arched lead wrist at the top but Lee had more of a distinguished style release that DJ, Koepka and Rahm don't exhibit.) Nevertheless, a bowed lead wrist is not for everyone. 

 

A flat lead wrist at the top that is maintained through impact is supposed to be 'the perfect' lead wrist position. It became more and more prized as the 'the only way' when Homer Kelley's yellow book titled 'The Golfing Machine' hit the book stores in way back in 1969. Today, it is still believed to be the only way to swing a golf club by the die-hard TGM fanatics. I suspect more golf swings have been ruined by trying to incorporate this one key requirement into amateur's golf swings than most anything else.  Am I encouraging people to play with a bowed lead wrist? No, not unless you are big and strong like a lumberjack.  Am I encouraging people to play with a flat wrist? Not particularly, but give it an honest try. Am I encouraging people to play with a hugely cupped lead wrist? No, definitely not. But I do encourage people to move 'from' a slightly cupped lead wrist at the top 'to' a flat or bowed wrist through impact. 

 

For golfers that feel that they are better prepared to swing a golf club using their left side (either non-dominant or dominant left side) I think they should give plenty of practice time to seeing what a slightly cupped lead wrist at the top can do for their golf swings at the bottom (impact). 

 

If you have ever piddled around opening and closing a hinged door you know that closing the door from a static position is very different compared to opening the door a little further first before making it move in the other direction to close it. You can think of other similar movements, like: snapping a towel, throwing a ball, twirling a baton, knee bend before jumping. It's kinda like a mini back movement within the regular backswing. Many (probably most) excellent players have a little bit of cup in their lead wrist at the top. How does this help you ask? For many it helps them to move 'from' a wrist/hand position 'to' a different wrist/hand position instead of having the wrist/hand remain in a static position all the way from the top through impact. Think about that for a minute - it's usually easier for most people to move 'from' a wrist position 'to' a [different] wrist position, even though the difference is only slight, which may be as little as say 5° up to maybe 20°. This oftentimes helps players with their timing too. 

 

In addition to better timing of the transition and the downswing, a little lead wrist cup usually provides a more engaging wrist c0ck at the top.  One of the more eye-opening reasons to incorporate some lead wrist cup at the top is that it oftentimes allows players to 'feel' that elusive lag that is next to impossible to reproduce with any regularity whereas trying to maintain a flat lead wrist throughout the downswing can stifle or prevent this highly sought after and important happening. 

 

If you think cupping the lead wrist a little at the top will lead to not consistently being able to control or square the clubface through impact - then think again. It will probably better allow you to control the clubface at impact. When you throw a baseball your wrist moves through many degrees of movement, yet you can easily learn to pitch that baseball (with heat) with extreme accuracy by practicing. So, practice moving your cupped wrist 'from' the top 'to' a flat or slightly bowed wrist with a square clubface through impact. It's not that hard to do! How are you going to do it? Knuckles down. Supinate. Golf club weight and momentum to baton twirl the wrist. Practice. Do it more! Do it better!  Feel that elusive lag that the tour players are always able to feel...             

  • Like 1

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 How are you going to do it? Knuckles down. Supinate. Golf club weight and momentum to baton twirl the wrist. Practice. Do it more! Do it better!  Feel that elusive lag that the tour players are always able to feel...             

 

Magic!

Nail_It, do you agree that "ulnar deviation" (knuckles down) in the impact zone is a  big supporter  for less clubface rotation aka "flat spot"?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Carlito said:

 

Magic!

Nail_It, do you agree that "ulnar deviation" (knuckles down) in the impact zone is a  big supporter  for less clubface rotation aka "flat spot"?

 

 

When the phrase 'knuckles down' is mentioned most people view it as a method/technique to square the clubface, which combines the actions of both supination and ulnar deviation. Your question refers to two different subject matters - 'clubface rotation' and 'flat spot'. 'Clubface rotation', in my opinion, is not a.k.a. (also known as) 'flat spot'. Also, they are not necessarily linked together - meaning that less clubface rotation does not necessarily mean you achieve an expanded or flatter clubhead travel, or visa-versa. 

 

All that said, if you are comparing the 'knuckles down' action to [say] 'flipping' which is the amateur's affliction, they are worlds apart. If you are comparing the 'knuckles down' action to [say] the more passive 'baton twirl' method (which is far less manipulative than active 'knuckles down' or 'supination'), I don't know that one method has any more or less clubface rotation or flatter clubhead travel through impact than the other, both being very effective yet different methods.    

Edited by Nail_It

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

Your question refers to two different subject matters - 'clubface rotation' and 'flat spot'. 'Clubface rotation', in my opinion, is not a.k.a. (also known as) 'flat spot'. Also, they are not necessarily linked together - meaning that less clubface rotation does not necessarily mean you achieve an expanded or flatter clubhead travel, or visa-versa. 

 

.    

Thanks, 

i can agree. Probably less or more  clubface  rotation is not the dominating part of this motion...

 

flat+spot+hand+path2.bmp

 

My personal experience in the past. Concentrating on full ulnar deviation leads to straighter shots and less dispersion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Carlito said:

Thanks, 

i can agree. Probably less or more  clubface  rotation is not the dominating part of this motion...

 

flat+spot+hand+path2.bmp

 

My personal experience in the past. Concentrating on full ulnar deviation leads to straighter shots and less dispersion.

 

Your image illustrates the 'pulling up' associated with 'parametric acceleration'.  

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, KMeloney said:

If someone has a strong grip to start with, what aspect of the swing should he be most mindful of in order to keep from hooking the ball with this twist?

 

That's a tricky question. The reason why it is tricky is because you can have a strong grip like Dustin Johnson or Jon Rahm (with or without the bowed wrist) with a shut face that uses primarily strong body rotation in their golf swing and not much twist or forearm supination through impact. Or, you can [still] have a strong grip that is open face where the wrist is cupped at the top but flat at impact with a lot of leg drive that would necessitate a significant amount of twist or forearm supination. There can be a whole lot of divergence in any swing regardless of grip type. It's just something that everyone must experiment with to determine what works best for them personally based on a number of personal and individual characteristics (e.g. body type, range of joint motion, flexibility, shut face vs. open face, cupped vs. bowed wrist, preferred feels, best results, etc.). 

 

If you have [say] a fairly typical golf swing with a relatively typical strong grip that swings the golf club in a somewhat typical way - then you likely already incorporate some typical degree of twist or forearm rotation whether it happens passively or intentionally. If you are pretty much satisfied with your current golf swing but want to experiment a little you'll need to figure out first what you do now, and then figure out what needs to happen (due to the change) to accomplish the important parameters - e.g. shaft lean, square clubface, shallow delivery down the target line, etc., etc.                

Edited by Nail_It

There are two things you can learn by stopping your backswing at the top and checking the position of your hands: how many hands you have, and which one is wearing the glove.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

That's a tricky question. The reason why it is tricky is because you can have a strong grip like Dustin Johnson or Jon Rahm (with or without the bowed wrist) with a shut face that uses primarily strong body rotation in their golf swing and not much twist or forearm supination through impact. Or, you can [still] have a strong grip that is open face where the wrist is cupped at the top but flat at impact with a lot of leg drive that would necessitate a significant amount of twist of forearm supination. There can be a whole lot of divergence in any swing regardless of grip type. It's just something that everyone must experiment with to determine what works best for them personally based on a number of personal and individual characteristics (e.g. body type, range of joint motion, flexibility, shut face vs. open face, cupped vs. bowed wrist, preferred feels, best results, etc.). 

 

If you have [say] a fairly typical golf swing with a relatively typical strong grip that swings the golf club in a somewhat typical way - then you likely already incorporate some typical degree of twist or forearm rotation whether it happens passively or intentionally. If you are pretty much satisfied with your current golf swing but want to experiment a little you'll need to figure out first what you do now, and then figure out what needs to happen (due to the change) to accomplish the important parameters - e.g. shaft lean, square clubface, shallow delivery down the target line, etc., etc.                

 

Thank you for the helpful reply.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Nail_It said:

 

Your image illustrates the 'pulling up' associated with 'parametric acceleration'.  

I know.... but if you look at the flat spot during the impact zone you see how the handle rises and the clubhead keeps a long and flat low point.

I personally think you have to accomplish the following:  flat arms and steep hands (ulnar deviation) a.k.a  late hitting.

 

flat+spot+hand+path2.bmp

Edited by Carlito
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   1 member

  • Our picks

    • 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Discussion and links to Photos
      Please put any questions or Comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Monday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #1
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #2
      2024 Texas Children's Houston Open - Tuesday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Thorbjorn Olesen - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ben Silverman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jesse Droemer - SoTX PGA Section POY - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      David Lipsky - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Martin Trainer - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Zac Blair - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jacob Bridgeman - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Trace Crowe - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Jimmy Walker - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Daniel Berger - WITB(very mini) - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Chesson Hadley - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Callum McNeill - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Rhein Gibson - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Patrick Fishburn - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Peter Malnati - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Raul Pereda - WITB - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Gary Woodland WITB (New driver, iron shafts) – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Padraig Harrington WITB – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      Tom Hoge's custom Cameron - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Piretti putters - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Ping putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Kevin Dougherty's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Bettinardi putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Cameron putter - 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Erik Barnes testing an all-black Axis1 putter – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
      Tony Finau's new driver shaft – 2024 Texas Children's Houston Open
       
       
       
       
       
      • 7 replies
    • 2024 Valspar Championship WITB Photos (Thanks to bvmagic)- Discussion & Links to Photos
      This weeks WITB Pics are from member bvmagic (Brian). Brian's first event for WRX was in 2008 at Bayhill while in college. Thanks so much bv.
       
      Please put your comments or question on this thread. Links to all the threads are below...
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 31 replies
    • 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational - Monday #3
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Matt (LFG) Every - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Sahith Theegala - WITB - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Cameron putters (and new "LD" grip) - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Bettinardi MB & CB irons - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Bettinardi API putter cover - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      Custom Swag API covers - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
      New Golf Pride Reverse Taper grips - 2024 Arnold Palmer Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 15 replies
    • 2024 Cognizant Classic - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #1
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #2
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #3
      2024 Cognizant Classic - Monday #4
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Brandt Snedeker - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Max Greyserman - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Eric Cole - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Carl Yuan - WITb - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Russell Henley - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Justin Sun - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alex Noren - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Shane Lowry - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Taylor Montgomery - WITB - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jake Knapp (KnappTime_ltd) - WITB - - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Super Stoke Pistol Lock 1.0 & 2.0 grips - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      LA Golf new insert putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Garsen Quad Tour 15 grip - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      New Swag covers - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Jacob Bridgeman's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Bud Cauley's custom Cameron putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Ryo Hisatsune's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Chris Kirk - new black Callaway Apex CB irons and a few Odyssey putters - 2024 Cognizant Classic
      Alejandro Tosti's custom Cameron putter - 2024 Cognizant Classic
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
        • Like
      • 2 replies
    • 2024 Genesis Invitational - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Monday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #1
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #2
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #3
      2024 Genesis Invitational - Tuesday #4
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Rory McIlroy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      • 22 replies

×
×
  • Create New...