Using LPGA trackman averages as a guide

[bonvivantva]

I've been really working hard to improve at golf the last year or so. Through constant regular practice I've improved pretty significantly. My goal has been to improve consistency, which has mostly been a struggle with path and sequence. I'd like to start lessons again, but I work in a family business with older parents and I am trying to limit my risk to the greatest extent possible. So in lieu of lessons (and I don't really want to try virtual lessons), I've been looking at trackman averages to try to guide my progress.

Through a lot of hard work and determination, I've improved my backswing and sequence to the point that I'm making pretty consistent contact. So I can no longer access success with metrics like, did the ball get in the air, did it go more or less straight. My idea to use trackman stats came from the other night when I was hitting the ball a little fat. I was hitting balls in my dad's simulator, and I was swinging an 8i. I kept hitting ball after ball about 130-somethingish carry, and it would roll out to about 142. Now normally I doubt this would have sparked a debate, but I was hitting these balls just dead straight. On the simulator's range there is a sign at 150, and it looked like I was hitting these balls just right at the sign. I was complaining about hitting the ball fat, but my dad said that he, a single digit handicap, hits his 8i about 145 or so, and not straighter, so I should be happy with the result. And while I agree that I was experiencing better consistency than usual both in direction and distance, I don't think hitting the ball a little fat would work out as well off the turf.

So I looked at trackman averages. I think maybe 2017 PGA tour averages. They were swinging a 7i 90mph, 120 ball speed, and carrying 172. That's not helpful information as my 7i speed might be low 80s at best and my carry is about 30 yards shy of that number at best. Then I remember hearing someone talk about how amateur golfers should care more about what gear is being gamed on the LPGA because their swing speeds are more similar to our, and therefore, their equipment would be better suited to our game. So I looked at LPGA stats. They're swinging a 7i 76mph, 104 ball speed, 141 carry. I warmed up, and wasn't hitting fat that day (at least not like before). I pulled out my 7i and ended up with 83 club speed, 104 ball speed, and 148 carry (about 162 total if I recall). That's close to what I've seen from my numbers in the past. These are skytrak numbers, but they should be at least close to trackman. When I started looking at the numbers for different irons, I was basically seeing swing, ball speed, and carry numbers that were one club higher than LPGA averages. So my 7i stats looked like LPGA 6i stats. The trackman stats don't show the average loft of the equipment used, but that's still much closer than PGA stats, where my 7i info looked like their 9i info.

So my question is, can I use LPGA stats as a guide for my progress, or is there something I'm missing? I'm thinking that if I'm swinging a similarly lofted club at a similar speed, if my launch, carry, total numbers are similar, I'm probably pretty efficiently transferring energy to the ball. I know that looking at PGA info doesn't help me, because I can't get anywhere near their speed at any given loft. However, I'm only off the LPGA number by about one club, and depending on the strength of the loft of those clubs, maybe a little less or more. So at my current swing speed, it at least gives me some basis for where my numbers should be. Does that make sense? And what about if my speed increases some? If 7i PGA club speed is 90 and LPGA is 76, how does a golfer with a mid-80s club speed get a baseline?

[Argonne69]

Having watched the LPGA for over 10 years, and attending a handful of tournaments, I believe those Trackman numbers are off by at least one club. The median driving average in 2019 was 257 yds. They hit their 7 iron 165 yds total.

[farmer]

Argonne, I still miss your pictures. To topic, chasing numbers is fools gold.

[Pepperturbo]

@bonvivantva - You can use whom ever or what ever to compare yourself to, we're all different. There is no standard. Even though I have played golf with PGA tour, Champions Tour and now retired, LPGA pros, still at 70yrs old, I look to PGA tour players and some Champions tour players as skill role models. They are the ones I hope to measure up to game wise. I don't need to see similarities in stats or equipment to feel good about my skills or progress.
NEVER in my life have I found the desire to look to the accomplishments of women to measure myself. It's not because I don't appreciate women and their accomplishments, I have a number of highly talented women working for me and I am married to one. I was raised thinking men are men and women are women and neither the twain shall meet. For that reason and another value that I won't get into, I look to accomplished men that are better at a given task than me, to measure my progress and set goals.
A base line should be men with skills at golf that are far "superior" in every aspect to yours. Last of all maybe more important is "we may never measure up" to their skills, not unless we do the work.

[Sean2]

It doesn't matter...you emulate someone who does something well that you would like to do. A good golf swing is a good golf swing, man or woman.

[Krt22]

lol what.

If you swing driver 95 or less, there is nothing wrong with cross referencing LPGA data if you want to bench mark where you stand efficiency wise, even more so given they are the most efficient ball strikers of any tour. The ball doesn't care or know the sex of the player. If you don't have enough speed, referencing PGA Tour (or even Sr tour) data in terms of launch and spin is useless. Lower speed players typically will have lower apex, lower spin, and thus need to roll up more shots vs trying to stop them, which is exactly what many LPGA players do.

[Mcgeeno]

Using LPGA numbers as a guide is likely more realistic for 90+ percent of golfers on the planet.

 

Do your thing.

[bonvivantva]

I thought the numbers didn't look quite right either, but that's google's first result. Like I said, the numbers don't quite work for me, but they're way closer than PGA averages. If the swing speeds just rose by about a club I'd have a perfect guide.https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/lpgatourstats/

[bonvivantva]

I almost used the word, "chasing" in the thread title and then figured that wasn't exactly what I'm doing, and it would lend itself to a lot of opposition. In lieu of lessons, I just want a guide for what an average person might do at a similar swing speed. My thought process is that if I'm hitting it fat, my carry will be lower than the average. If I'm stalling or early extending, the apex will be higher and carry lower than average, etc. I'm not saying I want to match any numbers. I'm saying I want to use a guide to detect any potential issues in my swing. I know you can't just use average numbers to measure the quality of a swing, but I still think outliers could point to potential problems/flaws.

[bonvivantva]

Due to ceiling height I can't swing anything longer than hybrid in my dad's basement simulator. Last year on trackman I think I maxed out my driver swing speed around 101 or so, but my swing was pretty different then. But my guess is that I could even use LGPA data for driver. Your comments about LPGA apex and roll out are helpful to me and not something I'd thought about. Efficiency is exactly that I thought the numbers would help me analyze. Thanks again.

 

[bonvivantva]

Since some posters have gotten hung up on gender (and maybe some of y'all should reflect on why that is), it may have been better for me to ask if there is a way to reference average trackman numbers BY SWING SPEED. I'm not looking to, "feel good" or "measure up." I'm looking to compare my numbers to ideal numbers at similar swing speeds. If that means using ladies numbers as a guide, I have no problem with that whatsoever. As I explained, the LPGA numbers fit me better than the PGA numbers, but really, neither is exact. If you can reference averages by swing speed, even if they were from low handicap amateur golfers or something, I think that would be most helpful. Anyone aware of any information like this? I imagine instructors would want this kind of benchmark information, so it's likely to exist.

I found out that the LPGA numbers I found were 2019 numbers, so even with current numbers I don't think I'd find an exact match for my swing speed.

I also found average golfer trackman data for driver only: PERFORMANCE OF THE AVERAGE MALE AMATEUR GOLFERI found this link about tour seniors actually increasing their distance in old age, but that probably has to do with technology: You won't believe how much farther PGA Tour Champions players are hitting the ball now than in their primesI hadn't considered looking at senior tour players trackman numbers, but if somebody knows where to find those, that could be an even better match than the LPGA numbers. I found out that Bernhard Langer has a 101 swing speed with this driver. If that's similar to other pro seniors, and the numbers extrapolate down to irons, that could fit my numbers pretty well. Even if the numbers a lightly faster than my swing speed, at least looking at the LPGA and Seniors could maybe give me a nice target range.

[juststeve]

The place were many golfers can learn from the LPGA is with regard to equipment. Mosy golfer would be better of selecting the club they carry with reference to what LPGA players carry, not the stuff PGA players use.

Steve

,

[AB1981]

Carry Distance vs. Swing Speed ChartHere you go, if you look in the middle it shows Senior tour averages. Senior tour average with driver is 106 according to this chart. That is about where I am on my stock swings and the numbers are pretty much dead on for me.

[Pepperturbo]

WHAT??? Reread the first line of my post. Use what ever makes you feel good. I don't care. If you don't agree, fine. I stated my opinion not for a minute expecting to change anyone's mind about the price of rice in China or the cost of bulk manure.

[russc1597187869]

The USGA driving stats indicate that even LPGA stats are far beyond realistic expectations for MOST golfers. Maybe the small minority of single digit handicaps can look to these numbers, but those on these boards who suggest that the average golfer can average LPGA or even Champion Tour distances are not doing the average golfer a favor by holding out unrealistic expectations.

[Krt22]

http://www.golfwrx.com/64715/carry-distance-vs-swing-speed-chart/

[Pepperturbo]

[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/DV6E4IP3O3P3/image.png[/img]Interesting numbers from 2010, article 8yrs old. - Yep, it's a rough guide. I'd say these numbers are rather common today for the better than average golfer. I am 70, trending 3-4, and hitting 9.5* driver adjusted sleeve 10.5* = 245+ and 17* 2 iron still reaches 205yds which is nearly as long as LPGA 3wd then. I am still trying to improve, not equal. LPGA doesn't carry 3i, mine is 190yds and PW is 115+. I don't feel a bit inadequate with my numbers considering I am way older and my 620 lofts are weak while many pros and better amateurs today are playing seriously jacked lofts.
Thanks @Krt22.@russc - this is NOT about expectations (wrong word) but who we chose to use as a barometer for our progress and what progress and distance means. If standing on a Par 4 tee of 440yds, better have some distance or long game skill. Beginners shouldn't have expectations as they learn, it's a recipe for ongoing disappointment.

[farmer]

OP, I'm going to expand a little on Argonne's comments and of Russc. If you spent an afternoon watching an LPGA player on the range hitting 7 irons, she would hit them 165,164,166, 167,163, 162, and so on. If Langer's driver speed is 101, he hits that every time, unless he needs 105. At a 20+ hdcp, you will not hit a 7 iron dead flush but maybe, what, once, out 15-20 balls? You cannot look at a professional's numbers and try to extrapolate them to fit your game.

[Pepperturbo]

If someone just wants to be average, maybe that's good advice, but I didn't reach 8ish index in under 5yrs starting late in life and a 2index some years later thinking I can't, so best be average. Measuring up and aspiring may be too much for some people, that's fine, but not everyone. We all have different goals. Some people really want to do their level best and are not afraid to see their numbers compared to a professionals.
I disagree with @farmer and his baloney LPGA 7 iron stats; 7i 141yds carry. Who gets 24yds of run out with 7i without influence of conditions.These two charts are from Trackman 2017.
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/UVJPYU1A11IB/image.png[/img]
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/SON894KA6AAL/image.png[/img]

"Looking at professionals stats and unable to extrapolate them to fit your game or goals," assumes a lack of critical reasoning and judgment. WOW. Being a high handicap doesn't necessary mean he or she can't think for themselves and or is insecure. If anyone wants to excel in golf or business don't role model the guy that's really nice and complacent in middle management and or a 10-12 index. He may be a great guy in many ways, but his inability to accomplish greater goals in areas where you want to accomplish and go is reason to limit what you listen to from him.
One man's opinion.

[russc1597187869]

Just a question for those better players.

Have you adjusted the length of the courses that you currently play.

I once read suggestions that golfers should play courses that equal (26 times your average drive).

[AB1981]

Not really possible for me. My home course is 6700 all the way back and most all the courses in my area are similar or shorter.

[Argonne69]

Trackman numbers are BS. LPGA pros don't carry a 7i 141 yds. Well, maybe "average" players do, but they don't contend on a regular basis, or ever. The top players average 165 yds total with a few yards of rollout.

In 2017 the median driving distance was over 250 yds. I have no idea where Trackman gets their goofy 214 yd (total) average.

[Argonne69]

Yes, I've been playing courses in the 6300 to 6600 yd range for years based on the 36x5i rule of thumb. That basically equates to 26xD.

[bonvivantva]

Thanks. This is very interesting. I do still seem to fall between the 93 and 100 column though. I'm still hoping to find full trackman data for swing speeds more similar to my own, including aoa, launch angle, apex, etc.I think people are getting hung up on distance. That's certainly a big part of it. As an able bodied guy in my mid-30s of average size, I probably have the potential for more PGA like speeds and distances, but I don't have the skill for that. To try to clarify how I've been looking at the numbers, here's an example. I've been working on an OTT swing path for a long time. With my hybrid, I used to come over the top, pull hook it, carry about 160 and roll it out to around 178. I don't recall the numbers exactly, but I also had a steep aoa, super low dynamic loft and apex. Basically I was hitting these very low hooky shots because of my bad path. When I started getting the path more neutral and slightly in to out on occasion, I started seeing more reasonable dynamic loft numbers, and carry went up to 175-180, total around 195-200ish. Another example is how I was hitting those perfect 140 yard 8is I described in my original post. My suspicion is that I was getting flippy which meant I was chunking more and delivering too much loft which I was managing to do pretty consistently at the time, but it's still not an ideal swing. If I had 8i data at my swing speed I could see if my apex was high, see if my carry was low, and maybe confirm my suspicions.

[Pepperturbo]

@bonvivantva The more you practice the more you will eliminate the OTT move and more often that club face will be square when hitting the ball. At your age, yardage increases will surprise you.
My twenty-something son doesn't play golf but maybe 1-5 times a year, using my backup blades. He too has an OTT move (seems most beginners do) and he struggles at times but has a good healthy attitude about how to face golf. When he connects his 8i is 160-170yds and 5i is 210yds+, drives are 290+ and he's hit a 4wd 250+. I watch in amazement.
It's fun watching him suprise himself as his swing makes strides. He seems to try harder when he's playing with me. Good luck.

[farmer]

OP, you are missing the point. Whether the LPGA player hits a 7 iron 140 or 165, she does it damn near every time. Trying to fiddle your swing to match professional numbers is just a bad idea.

[GoGoErky]

Doesn’t matter if you hit 140 or 160. It has to be consistent and at the end of the day if scores and/or hdcp aren’t going down hitting it further than now is almost for naught

[bonvivantva]

I'm really just looking for more trackman data I guess. If anyone knows how to find averages (not just carry distance) at more swing speeds, that'd be cool. It's a nice guide to have while I can't take lessons.

In that chart someone posted, it says the numbers are carry numbers. In the 100 column, the carries look right for me up to about the 5i. The hybrid figure is 201 which is my total distance for my hybrid, and even that is stretching it. I probably carry about 180ish, and roll to 195ish. I'd love to have more data on that club specifically. If my swing speed for that club is about right, I might want to think about different loft, or even just a newer club as I've never come close to a 200 yard carry. If my swing speed is lower, which is why my carry distance is lower, I probably just have something mechanical to work out.