Manuel De La Torre Swing Focus

[chipa]

I'm glad it works for you. My comments are for people that have an issue similar to mine, where focusing on feeling the club leads to relaxing some parts of the body too much that will cause pain, even for half swings. However, even though I can't do Manny's method completely I have learned a lot.

[tm3]

That's a GREAT video! Thanks for posting it!

[Dennisavery]

Steve,

I want to thank you for your patience with those of us who are hunting for a simple, consistent golf swing. I came across you last year, but it was not until around March that I decided to go back an read all your threads on this website having to do with MDLT.

I live in the Atlanta area and began playing in 2013 at the age of 55. My wife and I took lessons from a PGA Pro, I can say the lessons never really helped. In April 2017 I had to stop playing to to surgery to remove a tumor in my L3/L4 (lower back right at the bend). At the time I was hitting between 100 - 110. I started back in Feb of 2019. Around March I decided to focus on rebuilding my swing and purchased MDLT's book. By October I was hitting between 95 - 104. In an effort to get even lower in October I decided to focus on learning as much about the swing as possible and got caught up in "The Golfing Machine". Needless to say my scores climbed back up to 108 - 115. This March I decided to once focus again on the MDLT method and came across you. I also found the 1987 videos and in May decided to purchase the companion videos to Understanding the Golf Swing. In the last two months my scores have averaged between 90 - 97, with an 89 thrown in last week.

One thing I learned from you is MDLT is very precise in his language. There are no wasted words in his teaching, every word has a purpose. In addition, he is very concise in his concepts. As you have pointed out time and time again, there is not need for MDLT to teach about lag - if the club is swung properly, lag comes naturally.

I do have one question. Despite my intense study and attempt to implement MDLT's concepts into my swing, I still have a problem with slicing the ball and have been unable to learn how to hook the ball. I will confess that my severe slices have been converted to straight shots on the GW -7i, but on the longer irons/woods and driver, I vary between a straight shot to a strong slice. The longer the club the greater the fade and the more erratic the slice.

I have attempted to follow MDLT's advice he gives in his book on learning to hit a hook, and he says in the '87 video he could teach someone how to hook the ball in five minutes.

What would be your recommendation?

Thanks

Dennis

[juststeve]

Dennis:

I just posted this to another guy with a similar problem on another thread:

Eric:

I've never seen you swing but I can odder a couple of ideas Manny recommended to others.

Get the tension out of your left arm,. Tension there will often result in an open club face at impact and shots that go right, either straight right or curving right. Try that first and see what the result is.

A second suggestion that will take a bit more work is to groove your downswing pattern. When the club is horizontal, both before and after impact, . the toe of the club should be pointing up and the club should be parallel to your target line. Try to groove that pattern starting without a ball, then gradually small shots with a ball. One you get the club moving in that manner you will probably find the club square or close to square at impact.

Steve

Perhaps it will help you as well.

[PChem]

Steve

Thank you for the two ideas above. I, too, have discovered tension in the left arm causes shots to go straight right, in my case.

I've been practicing sand trap shots using Manuel's techniques as described in his book. His techniques are money. The fairway trap technique is money. The green side bunker technique is money. The swing thought regarding hitting the ball into the bunker wall is money. Most of our posts are about iron and woods swing aspects using Manuel/Ernest's swing the club techniques. Manuel's short game suggestions are simple, repeatable and wonderfully executable. I have given copies of Manuel's book to friends and encouraged them to use it as a reference for dealing with all the types of potential shots one is likely to encounter when playing golf. I am glad to read Manuel's book this past winter and have devoted myself to investing practice time to the swing repeatable and automatic. It is good to make progress.

Recently, I am experimenting to find the distance and conditions for shifting from green side bunker swing (ball 1 - 2" ahead of swing dead center) to fairway bunker swing (ball 2" behind swing dead center). Yesterday I was using green side bunker shot method at 33 yards with a pitching wedge and at 55 yards using fairway bunker technique with a 58 degree wedge. There is much more practice work to do with different sand conditions and this will take a while to accomplish as the sand here in central NC is pretty much packed these days because of daily thunderstorms.

Would love to hear other folks experiences with shifting between Manuel's green side bunker swing setup and his fairway bunker swing setup.

[Dennisavery]

OK, I have read most of the posts here. One desire that people have expressed is similar to mine - either having more videos to learn from or finding a former student of MDLT to study with.

The following link is from a former MDLT student who was also on the LPGA Tour - Trish Beucher. She posts videos from her home course in FL. The videos are high quality and she goes in depth into the MDLT concepts.

Type 815 Tee Time Inc. youtube into your browser.

[PChem]

My apologies if this link has previously been posted in this long running thread. I came across this link today when doing a search. John Ehle's lesson with Manuel de la Torre has several insights from the master. https://golftrips.com/articles/article.cfm?ID=921

[MrHateCoffee]

On 4/8/2020 at 4:20 PM, juststeve said:

A drill that Manny used might help. You address the ball properly, take the club back with your hands, then using both arms return the club to the address position, centered and square to the ball. No speed here. Repeat over and over again.

 

Steve

 

Gonna work on this drill because I'm noticing that I have trouble doing this.  It obviously would explain a lot of issues with my swing.

[tm3]

On 6/23/2020 at 12:01 PM, juststeve said:

Manny had a drill that might help. You set up to a ball, swing back with your hands and then very slowly return the club to where it was at address, behind the ball club face square to the target line. Repeat a lot.

Steve

 

Coming from MDLT I'm sure the drill has merit, but I'm curious why you return the club to address position rather than to impact position.  Steve can you comment?

[juststeve]

1 minute ago, tm3 said:

 

Coming from MDLT I'm sure the drill has merit, but I'm curious why you return the club to address position rather than to impact position.  Steve can you comment?

A bit counter intuitive perhaps but Manny wanted us to swing with the intention of returning the club to the address position at impact. He was aware that owing to the speed in the arms the hands would be further forward at impact than they were at address, but he thought it good to operate with that intention.  I finf it works for me.

 

Incidentally Sam Snead would think about returning the club to the address position when his swing was out of sorts.  Probably never hit a ball that way but the thought helped him as well.

 

Steve

[tm3]

23 hours ago, juststeve said:

A bit counter intuitive perhaps but Manny wanted us to swing with the intention of returning the club to the address position at impact. He was aware that owing to the speed in the arms the hands would be further forward at impact than they were at address, but he thought it good to operate with that intention.  I finf it works for me.

 

Incidentally Sam Snead would think about returning the club to the address position when his swing was out of sorts.  Probably never hit a ball that way but the thought helped him as well.

 

Steve

 

Thanks, Steve.  I'll add this to my practice regimen.

 

BTW, I asked you about my high, short iron shots and  you said to think about the intent of hitting the ball along the ground not into the air.  Just as a follow up I'm still short and high with the irons, which is puzzling given the length of my drives (when straight) and fairway metals.  It's an easy fix ie just take more club, but puzzling to me.

[Shabip]

Looking for some words of wisdom/encouragement here. I got into the habit of really getting right hand under the club and ave been miserable. No idea where the club face is, super hooded at top, and horrible hooks with driver down through 8i. 
 

I’m experimenting with a more neutral grip and swinging over the shoulder to over the shoulder. I’ve been hitting better shots but it feels so strange. When I get to the top, my club is basically screaming at me. It feels so weird. 
 

When I stop and check my club face at the top, it is square. But, it feels so awkward that during full swings I will get to the top and feel so unnatural. Is this normal when trying to make such a drastic change?

[Nels55]

On 5/20/2020 at 8:00 AM, juststeve said:

Nels55:

 

It's easy to be confused when you haven't worked directly with Manny. Take a look at Brett Freeman's site, freebirdgolf.com. Freeman was a disciple of Manny and worked with him for years. You will find on his site drills to improve impact. He does two, the first one is what Manny was demonstrating in the photo you posted. Take the club back and the return it slowly to the address position. A great drill with no speed. The second drill Freeman demonstrates simulates what happens when you try to return the club to the address position with speed. When you add speed the clubhead arrive at the ball with the hands forward of where they were at address.

Manny told me that my intent should be to return the club to the address position at impact. When I asked him whether the club actually returned to the address position he said no, because of the speed in your arms the handle will be forward of the address position, but that's not something you need to think about. Presto shaft lean without trying to make it lean.

What would be the consequence of a vertical shaft at impact? only the bottom 2 or 3 grooves would be available to contact the ball and you would never apply the sweet spot to the ball.

In any event, look at the Freebird Site. Next best thing to Manny himself.

Steve

 

Hey Steve,

Just wanted to mention that something you said here has really resonated with me: 

What would be the consequence of a vertical shaft at impact? only the bottom 2 or 3 grooves would be available to contact the ball and you would never apply the sweet spot to the ball.

This is something that is quite obvious but actually looking at a ball and club with shaft vertical and with shaft lean has made a difference in my game.  Particularly my lob wedge play which is a big key to playing well for me.  I already knew that shaft lean was necessary out of a tight lie but this little bit of info has cleared some things up for me.  So thanks for that!

[juststeve]

13 hours ago, Shabip said:

Looking for some words of wisdom/encouragement here. I got into the habit of really getting right hand under the club and ave been miserable. No idea where the club face is, super hooded at top, and horrible hooks with driver down through 8i. 
 

I’m experimenting with a more neutral grip and swinging over the shoulder to over the shoulder. I’ve been hitting better shots but it feels so strange. When I get to the top, my club is basically screaming at me. It feels so weird. 
 

When I stop and check my club face at the top, it is square. But, it feels so awkward that during full swings I will get to the top and feel so unnatural. Is this normal when trying to make such a drastic change?

Persevere.  Grip changes always feel odd at first but in a little while you will used to it and still have the better ball flight you re already experiencing. 

Steve

[juststeve]

8 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Hey Steve,

Just wanted to mention that something you said here has really resonated with me: 

What would be the consequence of a vertical shaft at impact? only the bottom 2 or 3 grooves would be available to contact the ball and you would never apply the sweet spot to the ball.

This is something that is quite obvious but actually looking at a ball and club with shaft vertical and with shaft lean has made a difference in my game.  Particularly my lob wedge play which is a big key to playing well for me.  I already knew that shaft lean was necessary out of a tight lie but this little bit of info has cleared some things up for me.  So thanks for that!

Returning the club to the address position at impact is an intention that works for a lot of people but is just an intention, not reality.  At full speed the speed in your arms will insure that the handle if further forward at impact than it was at address and you have shaft lean without trying to create it.

Steve

[golfsticks]

 

 

 

This is news to me, Moe Norman endorsing Manuel de la Torre.  Good stuff. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by golfsticks

[juststeve]

Very long ago I played two rounds in one day with Manny and Moe Norman at Milwaukee Country Club.  If Norman had applied himself to putting that day he would have broken 60.  Never have I seen anyone hit it so close to the hole so often.

 

I tried hard to engage Moe in a swing discussion but ended up concluding that either he didn't know himself what he was doing or just didn't want to tell me.  Could have been either.

 

Steve

 

[golfsticks]

What memories, fantastic.   If you knew then what you know now too bad you didn't take a lengthy film of the rounds-  have to think it would be a money maker in today's market. 

[lsh]

With a lot of golfers, particularly older golfers, switching to light weight clubs in an effort to gain swing speed do we lose the feel of the club?  

 I just got a couple wedges that have the standard True Temper Tour Issue wedge shaft. I am rehabbing a muscle strain and have not played golf or swung a club in 3 weeks but I could not help myself and waggle these and do some easy L - L swings. It seems to me I can feel the club better with them than I can my lighter weight graphite shafted wedges.

[The Pearl]

15 hours ago, lsh said:

With a lot of golfers, particularly older golfers, switching to light weight clubs in an effort to gain swing speed do we lose the feel of the club?  

 I just got a couple wedges that have the standard True Temper Tour Issue wedge shaft. I am rehabbing a muscle strain and have not played golf or swung a club in 3 weeks but I could not help myself and waggle these and do some easy L - L swings. It seems to me I can feel the club better with them than I can my lighter weight graphite shafted wedges.

 

I have an great club fitter who has built me a couple set of Wishon's over the years.  There is no doubt in my mind as a result of tons of experimentation that a club can be "too" light. I have tried lighter shafts in a different driver build to try to gain some speed. Did not work at all.  

[The Pearl]

20 hours ago, juststeve said:

Very long ago I played two rounds in one day with Manny and Moe Norman at Milwaukee Country Club.  If Norman had applied himself to putting that day he would have broken 60.  Never have I seen anyone hit it so close to the hole so often.

 

I tried hard to engage Moe in a swing discussion but ended up concluding that either he didn't know himself what he was doing or just didn't want to tell me.  Could have been either.

 

Steve

 

 

I have always wonder if he was just bored with the putting aspect of golf.  It was probably such bliss for him to hit a golf ball that putting may just not have captured his imagination. 

 

How good was Manny in his day?  Could you share what it was like to play a round with him?

[tm3]

17 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

 

I have always wonder if he was just bored with the putting aspect of golf.  It was probably such bliss for him to hit a golf ball that putting may just not have captured his imagination. 

 

How good was Manny in his day?  Could you share what it was like to play a round with him?

 

My favorite Moe Norman story was about some round he was playing in a tournament and he 4 putted a par 3 after hitting his tee ball on the green.

 

The next day he came to the same par 3 and right before he swung a heckler said "Hey Moe, gonna 4 putt again today?"

 

Moe swung, and while the ball was in the air he said, "Not putting today."

 

Hole in one.

[juststeve]

33 minutes ago, The Pearl said:

 

I have always wonder if he was just bored with the putting aspect of golf.  It was probably such bliss for him to hit a golf ball that putting may just not have captured his imagination. 

 

How good was Manny in his day?  Could you share what it was like to play a round with him?

I suspect you are right about Norman but his record in Canada suggests he could putt when he wanted to.  The two rounds I mentioned were two friends Manny and Moe playing friendly golf with me tagging along.  Nothing at stake, nothing to when or lose. 

 

As to Manny, although he was first and foremost a teacher he was fairly dominant in Wisconsin golf winning a number of Wisconsin opens and Wisconsin PGAs.  As a pro he didn't have a handicap but if he did in would have been in Plus territory.  Not really long but very consistent fairways and agrees sort of game.  Early in life before I met him he had competed with the pros during the winter time where he was competitive but not outstanding.

[naval2006]

I wasn’t reading the little Peter Thomson there’s about swinging the club and the guy, who was one of the best of his era said that the way they played golf up until Nicklaus was find a target and swing to it. He said he felt he just took the club back on line, no swaying and swung through to the target

 

Nick Price on a playing lesson on YouTube said something similar. He summarised his swing to straight back, straight forth in his prime. 

 

I think these players validate teachers like Manuel, who think the swing is something simple, without ado, but pretty efficient. Even though these days too simple means not so interesting. I

[Judge67]

On 4/14/2020 at 3:02 AM, Hilts1969 said:

 

I took it to mean and it’s only a guess on my part is that the arms in the downswing is just a clever/simpler way of saying get the elbows working closer and back in front of the chest. If you move over the top you will find your upper arms work towards the ground, if you lead with the right elbow and ignore the left then it naturally works more towards the sky.

Completely agree that swinging to the target with arms, definitely helps me keep the elbows in position. Also helps my shaft lean.

[mocokid]

On 1/9/2021 at 3:33 AM, Judge67 said:

Completely agree that swinging to the target with arms, definitely helps me keep the elbows in position. Also helps my shaft lean.

the clubhead swings to the target, not the arms, there is a difference.  .IMHO.

[juststeve]

Actually Manny wanted us to swing the whole club in the direction of the target,'

 

Steve

[Sean2]

I like the methodology, it's simple and easy to understand, however I have been struggling with hitting the ball too much left to right. I have the ball in the center of my stance, use my upper arms in the transition, and imagine throwing the club at the target. 

[NoTalentLefty]

9 hours ago, Sean2 said:

I like the methodology, it's simple and easy to understand, however I have been struggling with hitting the ball too much left to right. I have the ball in the center of my stance, use my upper arms in the transition, and imagine throwing the club at the target. 

I’m not an expert on MDLT method but he advocated the club in the middle of the stance. The ball will be forward of that position.

[juststeve]

On 1/29/2021 at 10:26 AM, Sean2 said:

I like the methodology, it's simple and easy to understand, however I have been struggling with hitting the ball too much left to right. I have the ball in the center of my stance, use my upper arms in the transition, and imagine throwing the club at the target. 

Sean2:

 

When I have your problem it's almost always because my shoulders are open at address.  Square them up so that they are parallel to the target line and see how that works.  

 

Steve