The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

I always try to make it very clear what the term "passive arms" means because it has gotten a lot of attention the past few years on the Internet, and most folks get the concept wrong. You want "fast arms" but "fast arms" that are in sync with the Pivot. The upper arm to shoulder joint is the most flexible major joint in the human body. Random motion in that joint, and motion in the toward the target direction which is most common wrong use of the arms in the forward swing, will almost always result in poor ball/clubface contact.

It is one of the primary reasons for inconsistent ball striking for mid to high handicap golfers.

There is some RPM speed variation in Transition between arms and torso, as arms have to come back "down, out and forward" a bit, and that means in the shoulder socket, but from P6 to just after impact, the upper arms achieve "Super-Connection" which means upper arms/s girdle are indeed moving same RPM speed.

 

[TheDeanAbides]

My head is nodding along to this as I read, Jim. Let me know if you ever venture across the pond to the UK. I'd love to go to a school.

[Jim Waldron]

I had a London school on the schedule for this October but had to cancel due to the pandemic. Hopefully next year it will happen.

[Jeselnik]

How are you teaching straightening of the right arm, or is it just along for the ride?

 

Jese

[Jim Waldron]

Pivot momentum with a tiny assist from gravity straightens right arm, along with left arm moving down and out and forward independently of Pivot. Reverse of backswing basically. Right elbow folding raises left arm in backswing.

[Zizzer]

Jim, I have one of your full swing modules. Recently, I have been doing a lot of work on ASI as it pertains to chipping, pitching and short wedge shots.  Have you written or down any video instruction on ASI/chipping, pitching and short wedge shots?

[Jim Waldron]

1 hour ago, Zizzer said:

Jim, I have one of your full swing modules. Recently, I have been doing a lot of work on ASI as it pertains to chipping, pitching and short wedge shots.  Have you written or down any video instruction on ASI/chipping, pitching and short wedge shots?

 

Yes, I have several short game videos that are in final stages of production, covering the full range of short game shots.

 

Not so much about the ASI aspect, although that does have a role to play. Very common mistake many amateurs make is to suck club and hands/arms way inside the plane on the backswing. That is especially damaging on short pitches and chip shots. With my chipping model, which features arched wrists at setup, and feet pretty close to the ball, the clubhead path is on a very shallow arc, and clubhead only moves off the target line to the inside on a medium distance chip shot by about 7-10 inches at the end of backstroke.

 

I teach zero arm pushaway for chips and short pitches, upper arms stay on the chest, with zero independent arm motion in the shoulder sockets.

[PJ72]

Why isnt this pinned to the instruction page anymore?

[Simon D]

I have tried this method having played around with something similar I had in my head some time ago after hearing somebody briefly outline something very similar to this illusion in the arm swing. I grasp the concept but can't conceptualise how it manifests itself with different clubs. Here's my problem........ I have great success with this when swinging mid irons 6,7,8, moderate to occasional success with 5,4,9 W, very occasional to poor success with the longer clubs 3 iron 5w 3w Driver. My problem is this, if when starting the swing (take away) turning away at the same time as lifting the club out in front of the chest it gets me too steep with the longer clubs (being stood more upright) so I have to make adjustments with the longer clubs. I seem to get away with the mid irons as the principle puts me somewhere near what I suspect is the correct plane for these clubs but it is way off optimal for the longer or much shorter clubs. Anybody have any theories on this ?

[Jim Waldron]

Two part answer to your question.  First, its quite easy to not properly blend the Pivot with the arm motion in the backswing. Many newbies to the ASI principle way overdo it, and their hand path goes outside the ideal plane. That is death with the longer clubs especially. When you blend properly, torso rotates about 45 to 60 degrees by end of takeaway, there is moderate left side bend blended into that torso rotation, and a 6" arm push away on the recommended 45 degree angle to your rotating chest  - all of those things will allow the hand path to track straight back along your toe line almost to the end of takeaway, at which point the hand path starts to curve to the inside as it also goes upwards.  So I would check yourself on video as the first step, from dtl view, to see if your hand path makes that path.

 

Second one is that your upper arms should move slightly to the right as they go up in a V shape. The longer the club, the wider the arm V will be, IF - and that is a big "if" - you have started with the proper amount of spine angle at Setup, and if you have established the proper degree of Triangle arm pressures at Setup. In that case, momentum from the Pivot will cause the arms to move slightly to the right of torso mid-line as they go up.  

 

So with the wedges, with more spine angle at Setup, the V is steeper than with driver especially, during second half of backswing. 45 angle of lead arm to chest at the Top with a wedge, 75 degree angle with a driver, again, if you let that momentum seep into your upper arms as you execute second half of backswing.

 

Meanng your hands are more to the right of torso mid-line with driver and also lower in height, all due to flatter lie angle with driver and longer shaft, and thus less forward tilt of the spine angle at setup.

[mrpetrov]

Well, I'm only up to page 6 of this thread (I'm savoring it - it's taken me 45 years to find this thread so I'm not going to rush it now!), but already Jim has changed my golf swing for the better without even meeting me (yet).

 

I've bought and watched his two "Mental Game" videos and there was loads of good stuff in there. The biggest lightbulb moment for me so far was Jim's explanation of how good strikers actually start their hip downswing move while their club is still going "up" in the backswing - as exemplified in the go-go drill. 

 

As a long-time player and long-time high handicapper, I'd never realized this subtle but important fact before. I thought it was always "start the downswing with your hips etc" - which to me (stupidly I guess?) always implicitly meant "once you've finished your backswing". This made it nigh on impossible for me (as someone with average athletic ability at best) to really "time" the hips vs the shoulders etc - so everything used to start moving in the downswing at once no matter how hard I tried to lead with the hips/torso. However, now I've started to trigger my hip rotation back toward the target while I can still feel the backswing going up, it has *immediately* made me feel the correct coiling and uncoiling that you see with good golf strikers. I can especially feel it in the stretch it gives me under my left armpit.

 

Now, I'm only 24 hours into this revelation, so I've still got to conquer my Hit compulsion and stop my hands/arms chasing my newly found hips/torso (cos they feel like they've been left behind, quick run and catch the ambulance!)....and I'm totally ball-bound still... but boy what a marked improvement with a very simple and executable adjustment for me.

 

Can't wait to see you in late July in Portland Jim at your school! Thanks mate!

 

P.

[Jim Waldron]

Thanks, M!  Glad you liked the mental game mastery video. 

 

Some folks might wonder why I included that "go-go" drill in the mental game video, which at first glance seems like a mechanics drill, or more accurately Swing Dynamics drill - which of course it is.  But it is also a drill for golfers with severe hit and steering impulse on the forward swing. 

 

Golfers who like a long pause at the Top do that pause because it gives them more time to "think" ie use swing thoughts which will actually trigger the hit or steering impulses.  Those golfers struggle to understand that the golf swing is truly a dynamic, athletic, free-flowing motion that happens far too fast for your thinking mind to direct - or even to monitor - successfully. Attempting to "be in control" through thought is the root cause for many swing flaws.

 

That drill is one of several proven remedies for that kind of over-thinking mindset.

 

It is actually also a common root cause for folks with severe yips in their swing.

 

I work everyday with golfers with severe yips from around the world. Right now I am working with seven golfers whose yip is way too long a pause at the Top, and not just a pause, but a "freezing" of the muscles and an inability to start their downswing.

 

See you in July in Portland!

[smdykas]

Jim,

 

I have some questions about overall trajectory and the shorter irons/wedges. 

 

ASI has been great for hitting a straight ball for me. However, I hit the ball very high. I cannot find a way to get the ball down. I do find the more I try to spin my hips the better the ball flight gets.

 

With my short irons/wedges, they balloon up, straight, and are short.

 

what am I doing wrong? I lift the arms, pivot, fire arms down and pivot. Looks good in mirror.

 

any idea?

[Jim Waldron]

Impossible to answer your question without seeing video of your swing - there are multiple factors that cause too high of a ball flight. Sounds like it might be a good idea for you to take a lesson.

 

But in my swing model, you do not actively lift the arms - they go up mainly from the right elbow folding along with pivoting on a spine angle NOT from active arm muscles lifting the arms up. And the arms do not fire down - they go down mainly from pivot momentum including the Tilt Switch.

 

But the first thing to look at is impact - normally if the traj is  too high, there is not enough forward shaft lean. Multiple causes for that flaw. Sometimes it can be as simple as Scooping Impulse, which is practically universal in golfers with handicaps around 15 or higher to some degree.

[smdykas]

1 hour ago, Jim Waldron said:

Impossible to answer your question without seeing video of your swing - there are multiple factors that cause too high of a ball flight. Sounds like it might be a good idea for you to take a lesson.

 

But in my swing model, you do not actively lift the arms - they go up mainly from the right elbow folding along with pivoting on a spine angle NOT from active arm muscles lifting the arms up. And the arms do not fire down - they go down mainly from pivot momentum including the Tilt Switch.

 

But the first thing to look at is impact - normally if the traj is  too high, there is not enough forward shaft lean. Multiple causes for that flaw. Sometimes it can be as simple as Scooping Impulse, which is practically universal in golfers with handicaps around 15 or higher to some degree.

sounds good. any instructors in the memphis area? Or video lesson with you? 

[Jim Waldron]

No, webcam lesson live with me. 

[Starched]

On 9/13/2020 at 3:51 PM, PJ72 said:

Why isn't this pinned to the instruction page anymore?

Because it's not really teachable, way too obtuse. A golf swing if taught properly is a fairly natural motion. You can't put yourself in all of these positions in 2 seconds. While the arm swing may be an "illusion" because it is combined with a pivot, that really doesn't tell you much.  It's one of those cool things you see when you first see him demo it, but then comes the "so what?" It's like saying a hot air balloon defies gravity when in fact there is a reason for it. I prefer the simpler common sense, results oriented teachings of professionals like Mike Malaska and Shawn Clement. Much more there for the recreational player. I'm sure JW is a nice guy but after watching his videos over the years I didn't find anything to hang my hat on, it's so down in the weeds that there isn't much to relate i.e. "do this" -  your mileage may vary everyone learns differently.

[divot tool]

On 11/9/2021 at 7:59 PM, Starched said:

Because it's not really teachable, way too obtuse. A golf swing if taught properly is a fairly natural motion. You can't put yourself in all of these positions in 2 seconds. While the arm swing may be an "illusion" because it is combined with a pivot, that really doesn't tell you much.  It's one of those cool things you see when you first see him demo it, but then comes the "so what?" It's like saying a hot air balloon defies gravity when in fact there is a reason for it. I prefer the simpler common sense, results oriented teachings of professionals like Mike Malaska and Shawn Clement. Much more there for the recreational player. I'm sure JW is a nice guy but after watching his videos over the years I didn't find anything to hang my hat on, it's so down in the weeds that there isn't much to relate i.e. "do this" -  your mileage may vary everyone learns differently.

I’m curious if you’ve watched/purchased any of Waldron’s Modules outside of the short clips openly shared on YouTube?  Waldron’s teachings are extensive and detailed.  That said, I would hardly call them ‘unteachable’ let alone ‘obtuse’.  If understood, the ASI concept explains a lot about the golf swing, but it doesn’t give you all the answers.  The real answers are found on the range and in deep practice. 

Interestingly enough, modern 3D analysis (Gears) now confirms the arm swing illusion. It seems only inevitable that this new era of technology when applied to golf will demystify alot of ‘common sense’ theories that we held dear. 

 

Then again, there are always going to be those who believe the earth is flat. 

[vandyfan]

I am so glad this thread exists. I have danced around this topic before but finally just went for it after watching Jim's explanation on youtube a few times (also Jake Hutt has a quick summary of the same principle that I watched as well). Jim Waldron mentioned some people could get this right away which I was skeptical of since most swing changes take months/years/lifetimes to get. Anyway, well, this was me prior to trying the arm swing illusion (please cover your eyes, this may be NSFW due to graphic images of backswing malpractice -- already stressed about putting my horrible looking position out there):

 

AGAIN THIS IS BEFORE I SAW THE LIGHT:

 

 

I mean, what is that ^^^^^? Other than Matt Kuchar, what current high level player looks like that at the top? Yuck. We gotta address that. And this is me like 3 swings into the "arm swing illusion" feel:

 

 

Same guy. A few days apart. That may not seem dramatic to some but to me it feels CRAZY but looks great. I was worried about how I would get back to the ball after being so flat for so long but for the most part it is the same downswing feel (Monte's NTC feel). Now my miss have migrated to a fade rather than a hook which is honestly fine and this is still very early days (I have played one round with this backswing feel) so it will be a long road to reset at the compensations I had due to my flat as hell backswing. But ignoring other things, the illusion feel worked in like 30 seconds to solve a problem I was really struggling to address. Color me VERY impressed. 

 

Differences in ballflight going from mega flat to more standard upright hands at the top:

 

- Less/no hooks
- Higher ball flight, more spin 
- Easier to hit out of fairway bunkers
- There is now a more pronounced fade if I don't motorcycle move/drop my arms/insert shallowing feel here which is honestly more playable than my occasional rocket hook

 

TLDR: I ignored this thread to my own detriment. Many people should at least "try" this feel if they don't already do it just to be amazed at how playable it is despite it feeling WAY OUTSIDE the line if you were previously whipping inside or flat at the top. 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by vandyfan

[iacas]

I fix this (or try to, ha ha) in SO MANY people. Body = around, arms = up/down.

 

@Jim Waldron's video was on my desktop for about a year. I may still make a GEARS-based video about it if I can find the time to create all the needed media.

Edited December 4, 2023 by iacas

[vandyfan]

2 minutes ago, iacas said:

I fix this in SO MANY people. Body = around, arms = up/down.

 

I'm legitimately JAZZED up to go hit balls at the range. Like want to take a day off and just hit balls at the range until my spine disintegrates. 

[zacgolf]

Watched this recently, reminded me of Jim’s illusion video….

 

 

[jholz]

I'm a big fan of the "arm-swing illusion" concept and Jim Waldron for bringing it to us. I try to thank that guy every chance I get. 

 

I'd argue that it is a diagnosis or solution to about 80% of problems in the amateur golf swing - backswing related, of course.

 

If you add in Slicefixer and the 9-to-3 drill to handle the impact area -  and a dash of Monte Schienblum to help with the transition between the two - and you've got a recipe for a wonderful golf swing. 

 

WRX should gets these guys together and launch a golf instruction platform. I'm a big proponent of their methods.   

 

 

Edited December 4, 2023 by jholz

[iacas]

44 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

I'm legitimately JAZZED up to go hit balls at the range. Like want to take a day off and just hit balls at the range until my spine disintegrates. 

 

It's crazy. It often feels to people that they're lifting their arms out at like 30-45° away from the target (straight up in front of them is 0°). So many golfers under-use their turns and over-use their arms.

[GolfSwang]

8 hours ago, vandyfan said:

I am so glad this thread exists. I have danced around this topic before but finally just went for it after watching Jim's explanation on youtube a few times (also Jake Hutt has a quick summary of the same principle that I watched as well). Jim Waldron mentioned some people could get this right away which I was skeptical of since most swing changes take months/years/lifetimes to get. Anyway, well, this was me prior to trying the arm swing illusion (please cover your eyes, this may be NSFW due to graphic images of backswing malpractice -- already stressed about putting my horrible looking position out there):

 

AGAIN THIS IS BEFORE I SAW THE LIGHT:

 

 

I mean, what is that ^^^^^? Other than Matt Kuchar, what current high level player looks like that at the top? Yuck. We gotta address that. And this is me like 3 swings into the "arm swing illusion" feel:

 

 

Same guy. A few days apart. That may not seem dramatic to some but to me it feels CRAZY but looks great. I was worried about how I would get back to the ball after being so flat for so long but for the most part it is the same downswing feel (Monte's NTC feel). Now my miss have migrated to a fade rather than a hook which is honestly fine and this is still very early days (I have played one round with this backswing feel) so it will be a long road to reset at the compensations I had due to my flat as hell backswing. But ignoring other things, the illusion feel worked in like 30 seconds to solve a problem I was really struggling to address. Color me VERY impressed. 

 

Differences in ballflight going from mega flat to more standard upright hands at the top:

 

- Less/no hooks
- Higher ball flight, more spin 
- Easier to hit out of fairway bunkers
- There is now a more pronounced fade if I don't motorcycle move/drop my arms/insert shallowing feel here which is honestly more playable than my occasional rocket hook

 

TLDR: I ignored this thread to my own detriment. Many people should at least "try" this feel if they don't already do it just to be amazed at how playable it is despite it feeling WAY OUTSIDE the line if you were previously whipping inside or flat at the top. 

 

 

 

Holy crap, are we twins? Here's the top of my backswing during my last range session of the season a couple weeks ago, also working on NTC coincidentally:

 

I've noticed my distance has dropped dramatically over the last 2 seasons... Confirmed on a Trackman sim last week that I've lost 10mph (!!!) clubhead speed from the last time I was on a launch monitor (late 2018). Puzzled, I went back and looked at some swing videos from then, and lo and behold my hands were around 8" higher at the top of my swing in 2018. My hands have gotten progressively lower over the last few years... evidently I've neglected the vertical component of the (arm) swing. Will work on getting my hands higher over the offseason, hopefully get back some of the speed/distance I've lost. 

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by GolfSwang

[vandyfan]

@GolfSwang And to be fair, I don’t blame monte for my flat backswing. I just misunderstood the “backswing to 7 oclock feel”. I think his downswing feels are right on.

[GolfSwang]

7 minutes ago, vandyfan said:

@GolfSwang And to be fair, I don’t blame monte for my flat backswing. I just misunderstood the “backswing to 7 oclock feel”. I think his downswing feels are right on.

Fair enough, but I wasn't saying NTC was responsible for my low hands either! I've had that low-hands/too deep look to my backswing for the last few years, regardless of which swing feel/idea/fix I've tried. 

 

I used to have way too much arm overrun at the top, I guess I went too far in the other direction in an attempt to fix it ha

[Nels55]

Well, I would say that if you get to the top of backswing and your trail upper arm is parallel to the ground and your trail forearm is somewhat close to vertical then you are in about the right spot.

[Tanner25]

On 12/4/2023 at 11:25 AM, vandyfan said:

 

I'm legitimately JAZZED up to go hit balls at the range. Like want to take a day off and just hit balls at the range until my spine disintegrates. 

 

What's your downswing thought with ASI? It seems to be less discussed compared to the backswing. There's an AMG video floating around here recently about, dropping the arms first in the downswing and then pivot/shift - that maybe applicable.

[vandyfan]

20 hours ago, GolfSwang said:

Fair enough, but I wasn't saying NTC was responsible for my low hands either!

 

I didn't take it that way. I was just getting in front of anyone that thought I was casting stones at Monte. I wasn't, I think highly of him. You didn't say anything of the sort.

 

32 minutes ago, Tanner25 said:

What's your downswing thought with ASI? It seems to be less discussed compared to the backswing. There's an AMG video floating around here recently about, dropping the arms first in the downswing and then pivot/shift - that maybe applicable.

 

I use the no turn cast feel which is much more down than around, for sure. It has a bit of the "motorcycle move" in it and, perhaps obviously, my lead wrist has to be flat or even slightly bowed at the top to do that. It is a much more conscious "re-route" with the higher hands than it was when I was mega flat.