Architecture Chat - Dye

[TKD24]

Let's use this group to chat any specifics on Pete Dye's courses! What courses have you played, any holes that stood out to you, why?

[jstandard18]

My home course is a Dye course and I have played quite a few others. I know a lot of people hate his tracks and I can understand why tbh, a lot of nonsense on some of the courses. Favorite I have played is either Mystic Rock of Bulle Rock both are awesome tracks that arent too gimmicked up but just great challenges.

Sawgrass is probably my favorite course to watch on TV outside of Augusta, the layout just seems so perfect and it has it all. Need to get down there at some point.

[exgolfpro]

I have played a few Pete Dye courses, mostly in Wisconsin at the American Club. Played Whistling Straits-love it, The Irish-hate it, Blackwolf Run-love it, Meadow Valley-love it. I enjoy how he visually tortures the golfer, either with a ton of sand (like whistling straits) or with his straight line borders between hazards and great shots (like using railroad ties or a vertical wall in a bunker (like the par 3's at whistling straits).

Other PD courses I have played are The Fort and Brickyard Crossing in Indianapolis.

[CMCSGolf]

What didn't you like about the Irish? I don't love any of the courses at the resort, but I found the irish to be pretty good. Not as good as the Straits, but certainly a better bang for your buck.

[tdog3]

Dye, respect him for all of his accomplishments, but he is one of the more polarizing notable architects. I’ve played the ocean, Irish, and straits. Liked all of them for a variety of reasons but like his par 3s on the straits the most, challenging players to use different shots into the greens, different wind directions, etc as well as the challenge being presented right in front of you. This bring up, however, my biggest complaint around his courses. His optical illusions, blind shots, and tricked up, unnatural landscape are more fitting for private clubs where members can diagnose, strategize etc over a stretch of time. As a visitor, playing the courses maybe twice if lucky, players depend on caddies far too much. You don’t know the caddie and he doesn’t know you. The blind lead the blind around the illusions and blind shots around the course that is overly penal with the tricked up layout. After a few rounds at anyone, I’m sure I’d appreciate his creativity much more.

[phil75070]

I've played several of his courses and used to belong to one. Play enough of his courses and you begin to understand and appreciate his design philosophy.

[exgolfpro]

I am a big fan of Blackwolf Run-River course. I think it is a blast and I could play it every day. I love the holes down by the river (9-13, except #12). But my complaint about The Irish is, there are about 5 holes out there that are either unfair or too penal that it makes the whole course a bit of a torture test for me. The first hole I can't stand is #4. From the tees that best fit my handicap range (6700yds) the hole is too hard. On the scorecard, it plays about 443yds, but I have never had less than a 3wd for my 2nd shot. And god forbid you find the sand off the tee, you have 235yds uphill to 12 yd deep green out of the sand! Good luck. #5 is a bit of an odd hole, but i can handle it since it is the only one like it out there (but a little to target golf for my liking). The rest of the front nine is okay. The back nine is just a hard trudge without any bailout. #10 is a weak hole to me...sorta like hitting up a stairwell. #12 green is ridonculous! #14 is a decent par 5, but #15 seems too punishing to me. #16 tee shot is too punishing for a very small miss and the 2nd shot is a forced carry with a 3wood (unless you just hit a couple of wedges around the marshy area below). #17 again has a large punishment off the tee shot for a left or right miss and #18 is just a bad hole.

[tiderider]

he is quite brilliant at time, and oddly quirky, sometimes with an aspect that does not affect the hole at all (that lone tree on the left at the Ocean course, somewhere around #4 or so) ... but this hole? ... that's a par 3 ... and the tee we played is a bit left of that ...

 

sometimes he really gives you a reason to say fpd ... i was +2 at that point, and couldn't believe i had to play this hole ... unconscionable! ... couldn't get past it ... doubled it and limped in with a 77 ... but sawgrass is a very good course ... did not think once about the 17th till i was walking off the 16th, and you realize, 'damn, i forgot i had to play this hole' ... people want to be edgy a bit and say they hate sawgrass and don't think much of it, but it's a great course ...

[crcraig]

I think Dye kept trying to outdo himself as the years went by. His early designs (Harbour Town, Crooked Stick, etc) are actually fairly understated when compared to his later stuff, and I can't imagine that anyone could dislike Teeth of the Dog. But it seems like he kept cranking up the difficulty and boldness of design (Sawgrass, PGA West, Whistling Straits, etc) in an effort to vex the pros, which was pretty polarizing. If nothing else, he served an important purpose, as he began the move away from the boring, Robert Trent Jones-led, mid-century design era. He probably went a bit too far, and in doing so caused several designers to react by moving toward the natural design philosophy that rules today.

[575M]

No idea how many of Dye's courses I've played but I can not think of one I would not play again. I believe my 1st venture was Harbour Town back in the late 80's and then as recent as last year at Whistling Straits for my 2nd trip there. I do like the Starits, Irish and BWR River courses there and in that order. Biggest issue with Straits is the 5+/- hour rounds and the cost associated to play it. If I were to choose a favorite of his designs that I've played it would be Straits and TPC Sawgrass followed by Harbour Town. Of his courses I would consider every day courses my favorites would be Harbour Town (though tight off the tees) and a course in Myrtle Beach called Prestwick CC.

[Argonne69]

I've played Red Mountain Ranch, Stonecreek, La Quinta Mountain, PGA West Stadium, Trump National, Riverdale Dunes, Oak Marsh, TPC Sawgrass Stadium, TPC Sawgrass Valley, Ruffled Feathers, Birck Boilermaker Ackerman, Birck Boilermaker Kampen, Brickyard Crossing, The Fort (Renovation), French Lick Dye, TPC Louisiana, Harbour Town Golf Links, Heron Point, Kiawah Island Ocean, TPC San Antonio Canyons, Blackwolf Run Meadow Valleys, Blackwolf Run River, Grand Geneva Highlands, Whistling Straits Irish, and Whistling Straits Straits. 'Probably one or two more that I missed. The Ocean Course was my favorite, followed closely by The Straits.

 

I'm a big fan. 'Don't quite understand why so many players dislike the designs. They require precision, and some thinking.

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by Argonne69

[Tim_Gavrich]

To my mind, Pete Dye is the greatest modern golf course architect. No one had more direct influence on other notable modern architects - Nicklaus, Doak, Coore, Liddy, Albanese/Lutzke, the list goes on.

No other architect's courses tie a player's mind in knots like Dye's. It's understandable that some golfers misinterpret his courses as "unfair" or "tricked-up" because they ask different questions of a golfer than the vast majority of courses, which tend to be pretty straightforward and bland and guide the player from point A to B.

Especially off the tee, if you treat Dye courses the way you might treat, say, a Fazio course, you're going to have a bad time. Whereas architects like Fazio are more concerned with aesthetically pleasing looks than strategic interest, Dye was never particularly concerned with that. His offset and angled fairways are such that the "obvious" line is not usually where you want to aim, at least not the first time you see one of his courses. Not taking the time to plan your route to the hole can result in making a good swing but ending up in a bad spot. That's the fault of an unprepared golfer, not a wicked golf course architect.

Overall I've played more conservatively off the tee in past years, and I've noticed that this strategy pays off even more at Dye courses than others.

If you've had a bad reaction to Dye courses in the past, I would reconsider. Reflect on whether you played tactical golf or whether you tried to force your way around. Dye's best courses remain relevant even against the pros because they can't be bullied. Once golfers accept this, Dye's courses end up becoming very playable, especially for women, thanks to Alice Dye's strong influence.

[sheppy335]

I have played a couple Dye courses, BArefoot Dye, Prestwick, Moorland and Pete Dye Club. I loved them all, i love the fact that if you dont stay in the moment you will get killed. I love the fact he can try to fool you but he leaves you a path if you look for it and dont panic.

The only other designer that comes close is Mike Strantz, he was amazing.

[caniac6]

I used to live in High Point, NC. The muni, Oak Hollow, is a Dye course. I haven't played it in a long time, but it was a fun course to play.

[EDT501]

The only courses of his I have played are Harbour Town and Heron Point. From those and from what PGA coverage I've seen, his courses make for a great competitive challenge. There were moments on both courses where the path to the hole felt a little too prescriptive, but I think a lot of that has to do with the way the courses have been managed since they were built in the 60's/70's. Some of the trees close to the fairway at Harbour Town, for instance would have been far less imposing 40 years ago - with a track that narrow to start with, there really isn't any room for tree encroachment without altering the architect's intent. Regardless, if you go in expecting a course that was designed to push the worlds best to their limits, you'll have a good time I think and appreciate the way Dye demands that you not only find the path to the hole, but also execute.

[toddnt]

Teeth of the Dog.. La Quinta Mountain.. PGA West.. Carlton Oaks.. And teeth kicked in yesterday at The Farms CC..

 

Love his courses because you know what you're going to get, pure and simple!

[hammergolf]

Here is a list of Pete Dye Courses I have played:

Karsten ASU

Delray Dunes

Loblolly Pines

The Medalist

TPC Sawgrass

TPC Valley

Belle Terre

TPC Louisiana

Paiute Resort Sun Mountain

Paiute Resort Snow Mountain

The Ocean Course

Waterwood National

Casa De Campo Dye Fore

Casa De Campo Links

Casa De Campo Teeth Of The Dog

The think I really liike about Pete Dye courses is that they look different from any others. He is a master at deception and visual inimitadation. His course always offers more room than they look and ALWAYS have great par 3s. My favorite 5 holes would be:

#17 at Sawgrass

#17 at Teeth of the Dog

#14 at Waterwood National

#1 at Dye Fore

#11 The Ocean CourseHe is the master of putting things in your vision to complicate your process. That tree looks 75yds short of the green and normally would not be in play for a decently struck shot, but since he puts it in your line of sight you immediately see it and start thinking about it. If I did not have a caddie or course planner the first time I went to play his courses you literally would think it was not possible to complete any holes.

 

[575M]

The 1st time playing Harbor Town I was with 3 friends and we ranged in handicap from about a 3 to maybe a 9. We were standing on the back tee actually trying to identify the fairway as the direction that made most sense had canopying trees on both sides that visually appeared to be touching each other. Only one of us actually found the fairway after we all bounced shots off the trees. I never to this day saw another tree-lined fairway like that. Gotta luv Pete Dye designs!

[WarEagleGolf]

It's all visual intimidation. After belonging to a dye course I figured it out, for the most part. But elevated greens, very strategic bunker placement, and collection areas around green.

 

True test of ability. To score you have to be able to work the ball - know when.to go over trouble or lay up short. Hit the low runner? Or go high to get the ball to stop.

 

I've literally played holes where if you hit fairway and green it was birdie/par. If you hit rough or the sand you are lucky to get a way with bogey. But that's what makes it fun...

 

I'll get up to the straights once all this covid crap passes, and I'm stoked. Love Dye masterpieces, but I'd say play it once with caddy or local - play it again to see what you learned.

[mizuno player]

Love Pete Dye courses. Played 6-8 mostly in the California desert. Favorite by far is PGA West stadium. It is intimidating off looking off the tee. Every time I go west to the the desert I make sure to play that course.

[silverbackster]

Pound Ridge Golf course - Pound ridge NY - Love it. Most underrated course in NY

Wintonbury Hills Golf course -  Bloomfield CT (Dye designed this course to town for $1 and #1 course in Ct you can play)

 

[silverbackster]

List if dye design courses

 

https://www.dyedesigns.com/course-list/

[italianstallion]

I’ve played Sawgrass Stadium and the Ocean Course. The Stadium course was an absolute nightmare the first time I played....I hit good drives on 2, 7, 10, 14, 15, 18 but literally ran through the fairway on all of them. I shot in the high 80s. I went back later that year and literally hit driver 5 times and shot 10 shots better and thus learned the Dye design philosophy. 3 woods and hybrids are your best friends on his courses...even on 470 yard par 4s. 
 

While I love the mastery that is Sawgrass, Kiawah has got to be my favorite. I only played it once in literal 45* high temps, but something about the low coastal setting of that golf course is absolutely spectacular. 

[NCLancer]

On 8/31/2020 at 1:58 PM, silverbackster said:

List if dye design courses

 

https://www.dyedesigns.com/course-list/

The above list doesn't list the Pete Dye River Course at Virginia Tech.  I think it's the only Pete Dye course I've played!

 

From the course website:

 

“This place has all the ambience and qualities that make a golf course really good. Here you’ve got the sound of the river up and down the whole golf course the entire time...the river and scenery are unbelievable.” 

-   Pete Dye, Course Architect

[phil75070]

19 hours ago, NCLancer said:

The above list doesn't list the Pete Dye River Course at Virginia Tech.  I think it's the only Pete Dye course I've played!

 

From the course website:

 

“This place has all the ambience and qualities that make a golf course really good. Here you’ve got the sound of the river up and down the whole golf course the entire time...the river and scenery are unbelievable.” 

-   Pete Dye, Course Architect

A course can lose its ability to be called a Dye course if they do not remain true to the original design. One of the Dye's has visited the Dye course I used to belong to in order to insure that no unapproved changes had been made and the maintenance had stayed true to that original concept. Could that be the case with the course at Virginia Tech?

[NCLancer]

53 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

A course can lose its ability to be called a Dye course if they do not remain true to the original design. One of the Dye's has visited the Dye course I used to belong to in order to insure that no unapproved changes had been made and the maintenance had stayed true to that original concept. Could that be the case with the course at Virginia Tech?

That is a good question and I admit that I do not know.  It's not an old course and I'm not sure of any changes that may have occurred.  We live about 3 1/2 hours away but we have visited the area a few times this year since travel/vacations have so drastically changed.  It's been an easy trip up to the Roanoke/ Blacksburg area and it's a bonus that the Dye course is relatively inexpensive and very entertaining.