Differences in club length measuring

[joostin]

Since we can get picky about specs, swingweights, MOI, whatever, how about this basic one: length of a club. Different methods will get different numbers - almost 1/4" sometimes. The dimensioned 3D model down below shows those differences (grip on). I assume most measure without a grip, subtract 1/8" on the shaft to account for grip cap, but then don't always measure after gripped (?). Question for you knowledgeable club builders: What's the most used pro & OEM method(s)?

"A" represents the method of holding a 48" ruler against the backside of a club in "playing position":

"B" represents any fixture where you measure from the backside of the club:

"C" represents any fixture where you measure through the center of the shaft:

You're obviously consistent with your own club building I hope, but going from the backside to center of shaft, you can see almost a 1/4" difference. So one person's 45" driver can be 44-3/4" to another person. I currently have a DIY fixture to measure like example "B", because of USGA's standard. But if I had to choose the best, I'd probably say "C".

The 3D model below is of a wedge with 62* lie, and dimensioned to show the differences of the above methods.

For putters that aren't heel shafted, of course you don't measure to the heel of the head... Cleveland VAS anyone? Jeff Summit of Hireko had an interesting thought to measure to the bottom center of the head citing Happy Gilmore's hockey stick "putter": https://www.hirekogolf.com/how-is-the-length-of-a-golf-club-measured#:~:text=This%20is%20how%20we%20measure,and%20not%20the%20very%20top).

Golfworks says to measure down the center of the shaft, yet most of their measuring rulers go on the backside of the club: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.golfworks.com/images/art/StdLengths.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiD0MjU94frAhUlZjUKHabqBQ8QFjANegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw32w56AziLKeIsmhAZ2X0l7

Personally I'll probably switch from measuring from the base/edge of the grip cap to the very end because that's in line with USGA, swingweighting, MOI calculating, etc. I also think going down the shaft center makes more sense than backside, and that using the club's actual lie angle makes more sense than a fixed 60*.

Edit: I would currently measure the above wedge like example 3B, but think 2C may be the truest measurement.

Any concensus?

[Noodler]

Your last full paragraph has everything I espouse.

Bingo, bango, bongo. You got it.

[Stuart_G]

Howard checked with the major OEM's to see how they do it.

And you left out the option of measuring to the butt of the shaft with no grip installed.

 

FWIW - there is no "trueist" method. It's all completely arbitrary. The only thing that's important is consistency in whatever method you choose.

 

[joostin]

Seems no OEM concensus, how about WRXers?

I'll add this: Measuring to grip edge (before dome) makes sense as far as usable surface to grip when playing, but when measuring balance point, Swingweight, MOI, all those are to the very end of the grip right? Also some people when gripping to the end have part of their hand past the grip edge. I think in a TXG video Matt said he's one of those.

At least we all get gram weight the same... unless our scales are off calibration or round to the nearest whole number. ?

[Howard_Jones]

Like Stuart makes a a point of, "The only thing that's important is consistency in whatever method you choose."

So, if a fitting is done right, it really does not matter what system we have to measure that club for duplication, as long as we use that system when we build. You can even put the club head "in a corner" when you measure instead of using a ruler with fixed or variable lie angle, as long as you use the same corner when you build. Metric (centimetre) or imperial (inches) is the same...the number values is different, while the object we measure is the same and did not change due to method for measurements used.

So, pick the system you prefer, and use it for ALL measurements and you will be just fine, the only issue is the lack of compability to other measure systems

[JCAG]

Some years back there was an article that claimed if measuring club length in the playing position, the thickness of the ruler could result in a differing measurement.

[Howard_Jones]

I think the words was thickness of the grip, not the ruler....just saying, since the "triangle" method is anything but reliable and a larger diameter on the grips butt end moves the ruler.

I used a Mitchell ruler with a fixed lie angle of 60*, shafts was cut 1/8" shorter than target no matter grips, and play ready clubs with grips measured to the edge of the grip EX the dome, but like Stuart writes above, and i quote him on, the system we use does not matter and long as we stick with that system and is consequent, just think of the word "benchmark" and what that really is....a mark on the bench we measure against.

As a curiosity, we dont really know how long 1 meter is, the original stick has changes by age, so the official meter is determined by a "decision" and is now specified as the distance light travels within 1/299792458 of a second. (1 meter is 39.3700787 inches or about a "standard" #2 iron un-gripped, while 1 yard is 36 inches or equal to a standard #9 iron)

[joostin]

Yep the dimensions in the pictures above show a 1/8" thick ruler would measure 0.074" short at 60*.

[rx7mark]

I use the centerline of the shaft to the end of the grip dome at the natural lie angle of the club method like you suggested in your last paragraph.  I am trying for MOI & MBI matching. 

But I was never sure I was doing it right.  So now I know there may be no single correct answer!  Now I can stop worrying about it.

 

 

[shellbmb]

I use a Mitchell board that was part of a digi-flex combo package and it's like example C above. But I've gone to a couple of stores with my own clubs and measured using that exact ruler in C above, and they were slightly different.

My most recent clubs were from Titliest, Ping and Srixon and my board's measurements were in line with their specs listed on their website. FWIW.

[joostin]

@Howard_Jones I was bummed that there's no real OEM consensus on measurement method per your thread that @Stuart_G shared. Of course everyone agrees consistency is what matters. The lack of compatibility can create annoyances or miscommunication though. Here are some I can think of:
- Bottom of bore to ground: One person calling out a 1.25" BBTG would measure 1.0" for another person. Communication of BBTG on the forum wouldn't mean anything without calling out their length measuring methods.
- Say Johnny Golfball orders what he specifies as a 35" wedge from Taylormade. He checks it in his fixture that measures down the shaft center and gets 35.31". Johnny ends up cutting the shaft and adding lead tape to get back to his beloved Swingweight. It could be even worse if the builder's method comes out too short for the buyer, and he has to extend.
- Brooke Henderson has a buddy build a 48" driver for her. He uses the center of shaft method not knowing it measures different to USGA. USGA measures 48.25" and calls it illegal. Hey, it can happen!

[Howard_Jones]

The exception for them all is the USGA rules, so if they was building a driver that long, it would be measured by the USGA standard, and Taylormade is using USGA standard anyway and on all clubs (fixed 60* lie and length including the full grip with dome)

So, they all have their own "standards" for everything, the only things we know is common for all 'OEMs is that the club head is always on the thin end of the shaft, the grip is always on the thick end of the shaft, so we know about 2 Golf standards they all follow without exception...With that knowledge in mind, what do you think of "a expert advice" like below for a new set of irons...

"...just go "standard" L/L/L and "S flex", that what works the best for the majority of Golfers."

LOL...we really dont know what that means, it could be breakfast, lunch or dinner, or maybe just a donut with a cup of coffee, or maybe it was a cup of tea?

 

[Stuart_G]

@joostin BBGM wont be quite as effected as you might think. Well, maybe it's better to say that it shouldn't be if measured properly. BBGM is really the difference between the playing length and the shaft length. So all the variations in methods at the butt end of the club should not have any effect on BBGM - as long as the same treatment of the butt end is used for both the playing length and shaft length measurements. So that only leaves the variation from using different lie angles during the measurement which will be much smaller.
Kind of off track, but the much bigger point of confusion with BBGM measurements is people who think the shaft length should include the amount any adjustable adapter extends beyond the actual shaft tip.

[joostin]

Well.... yeah... lol. Standard L/L/L. You guys must get "My specs are always half a degree upright and +1/4 from standard". ?

[joostin]

If Stuart says BBGM well I'll trust that's the correct acronym over BBTG!

I'll try to dimension my model to what my suspicion was about that measurement..

[joostin]

@Stuart_G Here's what I'm seeing for BBGM, measuring length with the different methods:
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/3GHPKO9ONRPM/bbgm1-png.png[/img]
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/DXL33YDL80TB/bbgm-ruler1-png.png[/img]
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/5PPB78W1RRXO/bbgm-center1-png.png[/img]That's this fixture:
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/F9LRLMC4UIBO/screenshot-20200804-205822-chrome.jpg[/img]They both measure the shaft+grip length at 33.543".
Backside ruler guy gets 1.72" BBGM
Centered fixture guy gets 1.92" BBGM
0.20" difference

[ARL67]

I have the measuring fixture in your "C" and would readily buy it again if mine got lost or damaged, even though it is very expensive for measuring. I use it in conjunction with a plastic square , readily available from any hardware store. It slides nicely along the ruler. I measure based on the club's playing lie angle, with grip off. I account 1/8" for my grip ( CP2 Wraps or Pros ) while some Tour Velvet with the flat squared butt will be 1/4". Pick whatever method and stick with it.

Also note that in measuring say a Titliest driver with the fixture at 60* , your measurements can vary by 1/4" depending on the Surefit adapter setting. I don't worry about such variances, as you can't account for everything. Same goes when swing-weighting irons -> I build to my exact SW numbers without accounting for my tape buildup and or the grip I will be using ( though I might weight sort my grips ).

 

 

 

[Stuart_G]

@joostin I think you're making a wrong assumption about how to use that golfworks fixture. You're not supposed to align the center of the shaft to the edge of the yellow ruler. With the sole exception of putters, it's my understanding that clubs should always be measured along the back edge of the shaft. Measuring through the center of the shaft is only really been an widely accepted method for measuring putter lengths. So considering a center axis measurement is adding an unnecessary complication to the issue.

[Howard_Jones]

I think the link to the tread about how OEMs measure is above here somewhere, but TITLEIST is using Variable lie (same as the actual club as std specs) and UN-Gripped, so the whole grip cap would come on top of that measurement on play ready clubs. Compared to the USGA method thats average 1/4" longer., or with other words, if we compare a TM driver who has 60* lie angle as standard, with a Titleist driver with a lie of 60*, the TM club will fits the USGA standard, while the Titleist club with the same official play length will measure 1/4 longer, A Mizuno driver will measure 3/8" longer.

TM 45 3/8"= Titleist 45 1/8"= Mizuno 45.00" as "official specs" on the manufacturers web page (they will all measure 45 3/8" on a Mitchell /USGA standard ruler)

- IF they all have a lie of 60* as standard. IF lie angle is flatter the difference will be larger., but they will vary up to 1/8" depending on the sole system (Pin like the Mitchell ruler vs a flat surface where the middle of the sole rest against like the Golfworks ruler above here.

Thats Why Mizuno calls their "old" system "to the pin", (who equalize different heel to toe cambers from model to model) in the "new" system they measure with the grip to a flat surface on the middle of the sole, then subtract 3/8" from that number where 1/8" is the sole pin, the rest is grip cap...

Asprin or similar should be kept in a drawer very close to the ruler.....

[joostin]

I was going off Golfworks own definition/diagram:
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/FR3PU85TDX4K/20200809-071429.jpg[/img]Golfmechanix's version clearly follows the shaft axis centerline for RH and LH:
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/HIMA2R4LPRBE/090721.png[/img]I've also seen people post DIY setups just like this, hence the concern vs. backside (no one's questioned them). Sure, backside is much more common but definitely those who have these setups measure centerline. @ARL67 I assume your Golfworks setup is like above?

[Howard_Jones]

Stuart is correct if we shall use the USGAs definition, then its not trough the center of the shaft to the intersection of a 60 angle, but the "back side of the club" to the intersection with the 60 angle.

A ruler like the one i used from Mitchell measures trough the center of the shaft like Golfwoks illustrations does (if we align the club in the middle of the shaft pins) and if you look at the text on the same illustrations, they say we get a difference "to actual play length" (what ever that is) of 1/8" to 1/4" shorter ( vs measured trough the cross section on the back side of the club), so if we use a ruler like the one from Mitchell and build a 48.00" long driver measured on that ruler, we are on the safe side of 48.00" vs the USGA rules.

Im sorry for the fact that i DID NOT ASK the OEMs that question, i assumed and took for granted they used the intersection between the back side and the 60* or variable lie angle, so when i see this issue comes up, its clear i did not do that job good enough, i should have asked instead of just assuming, and non of them replied with a answer who indicated what intersection they measured too. I simply assumed based on the text for the USGA rules, but since non of them offers clubs to the limits of the USGA standard, they dont have to follow that standard at all, so it was stupid of me not to ask, i should have seen that one coming.... My bad....

[joostin]

No worries, and I don't want to criticize anyone's methods. I've just seen past threads on DIY setups, the fixtures above, the "ruler in playing position", Hireko's Ruler Buddy, USGA, etc. They're all fine for consistency. But that intersection does make a difference, and I haven't seen mention of it other than by Golfworks. I've only seen posts about grip cap creating differences. The variables are lie angle, intersection point of measure, grip cap/dome, and how far the backside of the club is from the shaft centerline.

FWIW to calculate the centerline to backside measuring difference, the math will be:

Length difference = (centerline to backside distance) ÷ (Tangent of measuring lie angle)

For ex. my Cleveland wedge has a hosel diameter of 0.550". The centerline vs backside measurement difference would be (0.550"/2) ÷ (Tan 60*) = 0.159". If you add a 1/8" thick ruler it would be (0.550"/2 + 0.125") ÷ (Tan 60*) = 0.231"

My own crappy but good enough DIY fixure is per USGA's 60* backside:

[Howard_Jones]

Its nothing crappy about that ruler, its very easy to use when "the user" knows he should push the club head into those angles you made there, so you get a constant reading without room for user errors.

A ruler like the one from Mitchell who is one of the most common, has room for user errors if you dont align the club correct and in the center of the shaft pins. Another error source is that many let the ruler itself be loose so it can be used for other measure tasks like wrist to floor, and only the head plate is fixed. Then you have to make sure the ruler is fully inserted under the head plate. ( i never checked how much the shaft pin centering can be, but guess its in the area of up to 1/8").https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHHLwDavVz4

 

[Howard_Jones]

Here is the simplest of all rulers. You can draw it on a letter sheet (the 60 pyramid), and attach the ruler aligned with the paper for the hobbyist who only want a measurement. ive added a conversion between metric and imperial for the most common lengths marked with what we consider as "standard" play length. Its "conforming" with the USGA rules.

[joostin]

I do like to hear the "clink" against the metal sole stop to sure everything up, but protect the face and hosel with moleskin/tape. Also I try to keep the face square to the fixture with buildup, due to offset. Great simple printout above complete with a "Howard reference table"!

[Socrates]

No one here is building clubs for NASA so the degree of precision being talked about isn't really that necessary. What is needed, is that you decide on how you want to measure clubs and stick to it. That way everything you measure will be measured the same way. Every OEM seems to have a different methodology so there isn't any right answer to be found. All you can control is how you do it. A long time ago I decided to use the 60° method and it makes my life a lot easier.

[joostin]

Agreed to your all points. It just comes down to compatibility like stated before and people questioning why their newly ordered spec'd out clubs are 1/2" too long, like this guy: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/19609023#Comment_19609023

Consider it raising awareness because people don't know of these little differences that become questions. They don't know that taking specs off one OEM, like "-1/4 inch" off a Ping chart, doesn't carry over to others.

[JCAG]

Not a golf club story but might be interesting. I will try and make it short. Had to do with measuring spacing when aligning a CRT tube. We went round and round adjust, measure, adjust, etc. We finally found out hat the graduations on the rules varied just enough to cause differences. We showed the customer this and he designated one ruler as the measuring standard. We were out of there soon after. For those that might know, the rulers were Pica Poles.

[RCGA]

Bumping this

 

If the USGA standard is on a lie board at 60*, what's the length difference between measuring a wedge with a 64* lie angle @60* vs measuring it at 64*?

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, RCGA said:

Bumping this

 

If the USGA standard is on a lie board at 60*, what's the length difference between measuring a wedge with a 64* lie angle @60* vs measuring it at 64*?

It’s about 1/8”.  The closer you get a clubs lie angle, the less of a difference.  Most clubs in a set are 1/16” or less.   The important part of measuring is to be consistent.  The less moving parts the better.