Hogan´s Bowed Wrist

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' date='31 January 2010 - 02:01 PM' timestamp='1264964500' post='2216939']
[quote name='eightiron' date='31 January 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1264949254' post='2216421']Dariusz I cant agree with this ...Hogans grip is not your biok grip nor does he have left wrist bent or cupped with the right wrist bent at the same time....how is it possible to have a bent left wrist ( cupped) halfway down and have the right wrist bent without your hands spreading off the grip like a butterfly...hang on thats the biok grip....joking...dont forget Hogan was pitch elbow.....pitch...get the pitchure
Check out that 5 lessons pic on the other page...halfway down
[/quote]

Eight, look at this first, please:

[attachment=532046:0751-9909.jpg]
[attachment=532048:0751-9910.jpg]

The first pic shows both wrists in a slightly cupped positions (both !); the next one shows enhanced cup in the rear hand and the lead hand already bowed (the cup already released). What is even more interesting, the first pic shows a parallel releation between palms, while the other almost perpendicular - like after releasing some torque...

The drawing in '5 Lessons' showing the same phenomenon:

[attachment=532049:post-71077-1240218150-1.gif]

While I agree 100% (and always agreed to it) that Mr.Hogan's grip is not that extreme as the Bio-K grip concept, his post-secret grip is a version of merging weaker RH with stronger LH. This is crucial when talking about achieving a more perpendicular relation of both palms. At least this is what I see, for what it's worth.

Lastly, as said before, I am not a slave of those pitch/punch elbow concepts. IMO, Hogan merged pitch (early in the downswing) with punch (approaching impact). Also, I may be wrong, but this is what I see.

Cheers
[/quote]

Look at what ? One still pic which shows a minimal bend of left wrist and right wrist....how is it exactly the same as the 5 lessons pic which shows more left wrist bend and a flat right wrist....how is pitch vs punch elbow not important? Hogan is pitch elbow not punch , big difference , massive , this is a joke isnt it , but this all comes back to that total rotation nonsense into impact
How is his right forearm not supinated in those pics...he just doesnt over-rotate and have his arms way behind him with elbow in punch...call pitch vs punch loading differently what you want but LOL Homer was right its chalk and cheese...take it from someone who can do both

[martinez]

SS, we have different eyes. Which is not surprising I guess......more human nature.

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='martinez' date='31 January 2010 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1264986319' post='2217666']
SS, we have different eyes. Which is not surprising I guess......more human nature.
[/quote]
M...care to elaborate...

[martinez]

I would say we are looking at more the under-side and inside of the forearm in those pics and in that case the wrist can still be very cupped and appear flat. That's my contention.

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='martinez' date='31 January 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1264993110' post='2217967']
I would say we are looking at more the under-side and inside of the forearm in those pics and in that case the wrist can still be very cupped and appear flat. That's my contention.
[/quote]
If that's true wouldn't it be manifest in what is happening with the face...

Is the cup (and conversely supination) a product of the left wrist, or is it the extent of right wrist bend..

[Jim Waldron]

Hogan no doubt had more than one type of release, to assist in curving the ball, draw or fade, and low or high trajectory as well. Some of the footage shows his left wrist as flat or nearly so at around the halfway down point in the forward swing, and some like the photo above shows the left wrist still well-cupped, likely this was his fade release, the flatter left wrist at halfway down likely was his draw release. He mostly hit a very slight fade as his go to shot pattern, but could move the ball easily both ways.

Another way he achieved his going from cupped to bowed in the left wrist was to move the right elbow closer to his left elbow during Transition, that is one way that is pretty easy to do for most intermediate to advanced players. He told Schlee that this was a magic move, a natural athletic move common to most throwing sports (baseball pitchers, quarterbacks, javelin throwers), Hogan called it "dropping the right elbow onto the Power Plane". It increases the horizontal Lag by increasing the hinge angle at the back of the right hand/wrist area, kind of an "insurance policy" against a tendency to flip the wrist sideways during Release. It also flattens the shaft plane angle, which shifts the plane out to the right a bit, as he described somewhat vaguely in 5 Lessons. Tilting the spine to the right can also do these things, ie flatten or bow the left wrist, flatten the shaft plane a little, move the right elbow closer to mid-line, especially if you use light grip pressure, soft arms and heavy clubs. (Not saying Hogan had soft hands or light grip pressure - he did not.) Right spine tilt probably allows some momentum to leak into the wrist and arms, causing the flattening/bowing effect. Many top ballstrikers do all three moves - the right spine tilt from mid-spine region, the left wrist bowing and the right elbow looping/flattening move. But - this requires a very open body at impact to compensate for the big plane shift to the right, otherwise you will hit it dead right. And that kind of open body means a fast unwinding speed, strong and flexible Core as well.

[martinez]

The face relative to the left arm is just as dependent on camera angle, the angle or portion of the left arm facing the camera. Right wrist bend also.....very illusory imo, these frames.

Just for arguments sake, if the right wrist were not cocked at all, these things are far more simply measured from this angle. The pic second from the bottom is the clearest to me, well clearest due to the camera angle.

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' date='31 January 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1264996687' post='2218141']
Hogan no doubt had more than one type of release, to assist in curving the ball, draw or fade, and low or high trajectory as well. Some of the footage shows his left wrist as flat or nearly so at around the halfway down point in the forward swing, and some like the photo above shows the left wrist still well-cupped, likely this was his fade release, the flatter left wrist at halfway down likely was his draw release. He mostly hit a very slight fade as his go to shot pattern, but could move the ball easily both ways.

Another way he achieved his going from cupped to bowed in the left wrist was to move the right elbow closer to his left elbow during Transition, that is one way that is pretty easy to do for most intermediate to advanced players. He told Schlee that this was a magic move, a natural athletic move common to most throwing sports (baseball pitchers, quarterbacks, javelin throwers), Hogan called it "dropping the right elbow onto the Power Plane". It increases the horizontal Lag by increasing the hinge angle at the back of the right hand/wrist area, kind of an "insurance policy" against a tendency to flip the wrist sideways during Release. It also flattens the shaft plane angle, which shifts the plane out to the right a bit, as he described somewhat vaguely in 5 Lessons. Tilting the spine to the right can also do these things, ie flatten or bow the left wrist, flatten the shaft plane a little, move the right elbow closer to mid-line, especially if you use light grip pressure, soft arms and heavy clubs. (Not saying Hogan had soft hands or light grip pressure - he did not.) Right spine tilt probably allows some momentum to leak into the wrist and arms, causing the flattening/bowing effect. Many top ballstrikers do all three moves - the right spine tilt from mid-spine region, the left wrist bowing and the right elbow looping/flattening move. But - this requires a very open body at impact to compensate for the [size="3"][b]big plane shift to the right[/b][/size], otherwise you will hit it dead right. And that kind of open body means a fast unwinding speed, strong and flexible Core as well.
[/quote]
Can you show me a single pic where Hogan had a "big plane shift to the right"?
You'd agree, Hogan didn't always carry the cup deep into the downswing, i.e., to delivery point where "biomechanics" released it?

[martinez]

[quote name='martinez' date='31 January 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1264904118' post='2215592']
I understand, I don't see it as an enigma anymore, I see it as he consciously cupped the crap out of it every time, then depending on what else was going on......whatever shot he was consciously intending to hit, how he used his body, it did what it did from transition onwards.
[/quote]


[quote name='Siteseer2' date='01 February 2010 - 02:25 PM' timestamp='1264998347' post='2218209']
You'd agree, Hogan didn't always carry the cup deep into the downswing, i.e., to delivery point where "biomechanics" released it?
[/quote]

Can you re-read what I wrote earlier and put it in the context of what I said later. Just for clarity.

[Siteseer2]

M...the post was inquiring of Waldron...hence the quoted post...

I'm a HUGE fan, M...just asking and kicking around ideas, fwiw

[eightiron]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' date='31 January 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1264996687' post='2218141']
Hogan no doubt had more than one type of release, to assist in curving the ball, draw or fade, and low or high trajectory as well.[b] Some of the footage shows his left wrist as flat or nearly so at around the halfway down point in the forward swing, and some like the photo above shows the left wrist still well-cupped, likely this was his fade release, the flatter left wrist at halfway down likely was his draw releas[/b]e. He mostly hit a very slight fade as his go to shot pattern, but could move the ball easily both ways.

Another way he achieved his going from cupped to bowed in the left wrist was to move the right elbow closer to his left elbow during Transition, that is one way that is pretty easy to do for most intermediate to advanced players. He told Schlee that this was a magic move, a natural athletic move common to most throwing sports (baseball pitchers, quarterbacks, javelin throwers), Hogan called it "dropping the right elbow onto the Power Plane". It increases the horizontal Lag by increasing the hinge angle at the back of the right hand/wrist area, kind of an "insurance policy" against a tendency to flip the wrist sideways during Release. It also flattens the shaft plane angle, which shifts the plane out to the right a bit, as he described somewhat vaguely in 5 Lessons. Tilting the spine to the right can also do these things, ie flatten or bow the left wrist, flatten the shaft plane a little, move the right elbow closer to mid-line, especially if you use light grip pressure, soft arms and heavy clubs. (Not saying Hogan had soft hands or light grip pressure - he did not.) Right spine tilt probably allows some momentum to leak into the wrist and arms, causing the flattening/bowing effect. Many top ballstrikers do all three moves - the right spine tilt from mid-spine region, the left wrist bowing and the right elbow looping/flattening move. But - this requires a very open body at impact to compensate for the big plane shift to the right, otherwise you will hit it dead right. And that kind of open body means a fast unwinding speed, strong and flexible Core as well.
[/quote]

or the opposite moves for fade and draw...in fact it is...what a cracker

[martinez]

[quote name='Siteseer2' date='01 February 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1265027974' post='2218622']
M...the post was inquiring of Waldron...hence the quoted post...

I'm a HUGE fan, M...just asking and kicking around ideas, fwiw
[/quote]

I realized that mate, I was merely drawing attention to a point.....to clarify my posts on this page. That is I agree it varied.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' date='31 January 2010 - 11:09 PM' timestamp='1264979387' post='2217418']
Look at what ? One still pic which shows a minimal bend of left wrist and right wrist....how is it exactly the same as the 5 lessons pic which shows more left wrist bend and a flat right wrist....how is pitch vs punch elbow not important? Hogan is pitch elbow not punch , big difference , massive , this is a joke isnt it , but this all comes back to that total rotation nonsense into impact
How is his right forearm not supinated in those pics...he just doesnt over-rotate and have his arms way behind him with elbow in punch...call pitch vs punch loading differently what you want but LOL Homer was right its chalk and cheese...take it from someone who can do both
[/quote]

I never said Hogan was a punch elbow. It would be ridiculous - that's why, among others, I left the Hardy camp...LOL. I could say that he could be not a classic pitch till the very end. His elbow joint stops moving forward when the classic pitch elbow should already not. At least, this is what I see in my ideal world.
In the macroscale, this is not important, since if we swing sequentially from the ground up, leaving our arms as last in the kinetic chain queue, a golfer usually start with pitch elbow. The punch (push) elbow happens when the hands rush before it's their natural turn leaving the joint behind.
I can easily accept your arguments, since the rear elbow motion of Mr.Hogan is so pronounced (on purpose)that it's not surprise for me if it appears to be the purest example of pitch elbow ever performed.

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='Siteseer2' date='31 January 2010 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1264980049' post='2217439']The cup comes out at delivery point (p6)????
Not to my eyes...
[attachment=532249:HoganCup1.JPEG]
[attachment=532250:HoganCup2.JPEG]
[attachment=532251:HoganCup3.JPEG]
[attachment=532252:HoganCup4.JPEG]
[attachment=532253:HoganCup5.JPEG]
[/quote]

You're right. I shouldn't have generalized this aspect. Seems it depended on Mr.Hogan's intentions of the shot.

Cheers

[Jooma]

[size="3"]Ben Hogan was born a natural hooker of the golf ball (like majority of professionals are) and he is the first who discovered that the only consistent way to counteract his natural tendencies of hooking the golf ball, is to use the back of his left hand to control and guide the impact.[/size]

[size="3"]I believe this is the great Hogan’s secret in golf and by miles the best way to control the impact. [/size]

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='Jooma' date='04 February 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1265335377' post='2228263']
[size="3"]Ben Hogan was born a natural hooker of the golf ball (like majority of professionals are) and he is the first who discovered that the only consistent way to counteract his natural tendencies of hooking the golf ball, is to use the back of his left hand to control and guide the impact.[/size]

[size="3"]I believe this is the great Hogan’s secret in golf and by miles the best way to control the impact. [/size]
[/quote]
Hope he was a magician then, because it would be one HECK of a trick to be able to manipulate the face with his left hand to any degree of consistency...

As far as THAT being his secret, well, it wouldn't be much of one, then..IMO

[Jooma]

[size="3"]I believe that you represent yourself in your comment only, because Hogan himself is talking about "[b]supinating his left wrist on impact[/b]"
The left wrist is not doing it on its own, someone must control it and perhaps it is Hogan, but you are free not to believe it.[/size]

[size="3"]Check impact pictures of the golf Greats and particularly Tiger.[/size]

[dream_stryker]

[quote name='Jooma' date='04 February 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1265338724' post='2228389']
[size="3"]I believe that you represent yourself in your comment only, because Hogan himself is talking about "[b]supinating his left wrist on impact[/b]"
The left wrist is not doing it on its own, someone must control it and perhaps it is Hogan, but you are free not to believe it.[/size]

[size="3"]Check impact pictures of the golf Greats and particularly Tiger.[/size]


[/quote]

Mr Hogan wrote that the left wrist supinates in good players. The verbiage does NOT say HE (Mr Hogan) supinated his wrist. There is a big difference in saying the knee bends when you walk and ....Bend your knee when you walk. In fact, the intention to put one foot in front of the other takes care of knee bending while walking.

Impact pictures are the silliest thing in golf instruction. Looking at them give you zero information about how to get into that position as part of dynamic motion. The may have some value for comparative golf swing analysis but little is learned from a still. You'd learn more watching a master's pre-shot routine and as they prepare to strike the ball.....

I respect your opinion however so if you believe that Hogan was good enough to control the face year to year...then your opinion is just as valid as those of us who don't because the only one that really knows is no longer with us.

[hanon]

I don´t know if this can clarify the move done by Hogan to bow the wrist, but anyway it´s worthwhile to watch it. Johny Miller mentions Hogan´s supination:


[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHZLvKDdQGc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHZLvKDdQGc[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdinqHVdG2g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdinqHVdG2g[/url]

[TeeAce]

I don´t know if this can clarify the move done by Hogan to bow the wrist, but anyway it´s worthwhile to watch it. Johny Miller mentions Hogan´s supination:

 

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=nHZLvKDdQGc

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=WdinqHVdG2g

 

 

Yes he speaks. Funny thing is that, that palmar flexion what Hogan called supination made us so blind about real supination

 

In Hogans left hand there was two movements at the same time and he even confused terminology of those two.

 

There was that palmar flexion which mad it bowed (Hogan called supination) and at same time there was real supination (rotation of forearm outwards) Only palmar flexion is shown in the picture with circle in page 102 and real supination can be seen only in last picture of upper row.

 

 

 

[SwingNV]

 

Yes he speaks. Funny thing is that, that palmar flexion what Hogan called supination made us so blind about real supination

 

In Hogans left hand there was two movements at the same time and he even confused terminology of those two.

 

There was that palmar flexion which mad it bowed (Hogan called supination) and at same time there was real supination (rotation of forearm outwards) Only palmar flexion is shown in the picture with circle in page 102 and real supination can be seen only in last picture of upper row.

 

 

 

 

I really doubt that Hogan "confused" any terminology in 5 Lessons. His artist Anthony Ravielli was well educated in human anatomy and movements, thus would have corrected this mistake. Hogan used the term "supinates" because that's what you have to do in order to get the bowed left wrist. If he felt that you achieve the bowed wrist by using palmar flexion, then that's the term he would have used. Hogan is telling us that the bowed left wrist is critical to solid contact, yet bowing the wrist is not how you achieve it. Instead you supinate the forearm.

[TeeAce]

 

Yes he speaks. Funny thing is that, that palmar flexion what Hogan called supination made us so blind about real supination

 

In Hogans left hand there was two movements at the same time and he even confused terminology of those two.

 

There was that palmar flexion which mad it bowed (Hogan called supination) and at same time there was real supination (rotation of forearm outwards) Only palmar flexion is shown in the picture with circle in page 102 and real supination can be seen only in last picture of upper row.

 

 

 

 

I really doubt that Hogan "confused" any terminology in 5 Lessons. His artist Anthony Ravielli was well educated in human anatomy and movements, thus would have corrected this mistake. Hogan used the term "supinates" because that's what you have to do in order to get the bowed left wrist. If he felt that you achieve the bowed wrist by using palmar flexion, then that's the term he would have used. Hogan is telling us that the bowed left wrist is critical to solid contact, yet bowing the wrist is not how you achieve it. Instead you supinate the forearm.

 

 

 

He wrote exactly: "left wrist begins to supinate at impact. The raised wristbone points to target" and draw a picture of bowed wrist. Also draw an other picture that he called pronating and it was clear view of dorsal flexion. And so do J.Miller show it also

 

You don't need to supinate Your forearm to get that and supination also don't help to bow it. It is just pure rotation move.

 

 

That's not a big mistake.. it's only words, but I think that has been confusing many people during the years. Anyway You have to do both and that hasn't been said by Johnny Miller or hundreds of other pros talking about that move.

[SwingNV]

TeeAce,

I agree 100% that people have been confused by this for years. I just believe Hogan wrote it this way for a specific reason. Simply, that the bowed wrist was a result of another thing- the supination of the left arm. I also didn't mean to imply that you need to consciously supinate the left arm. In fact I don't think about it at all in my swing. It just happens for me naturally as a result of my setup and waggle.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='SwingNV' date='08 February 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1265656059' post='2236365']
TeeAce,

I agree 100% that people have been confused by this for years. I just believe Hogan wrote it this way for a specific reason. Simply, that the bowed wrist was a result of another thing- the supination of the left arm. I also didn't mean to imply that you need to consciously supinate the left arm. In fact I don't think about it at all in my swing. It just happens for me naturally as a result of my setup and waggle.
[/quote]

So why You think he made then mistake of that opposite move calling it pronation ?

I think all he wanted to say was: don't scoop it up, keep the pressure on the ball.

For me the interesting thing is, that did he later found that combination of palmar flexion and real supination as the secret.

[SwingNV]

I think he used the term pronation because he was once again trying to tell us the cause of the scoop, not the result. Dorsi flexion is the result, not the cause. A bad player doesn't consciously try to dorsi flex the left wrist, it happens becuse the left arm is in a pronated positon approaching impact and the cupping is the only way to release. Basically Hogan used supination/pronantion instead of palmar/dorsi because he wanted to tell us the cause of bow/cup not the result.

Also there are other ways to achieve a more prominent bow in the left wrist at impact, such as applying pressure with the pad of your right index finger toward the target. Hogan showed us this in the Coleman beach video.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='SwingNV' date='08 February 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1265659748' post='2236503']
I think he used the term pronation because he was once again trying to tell us the cause of the scoop, not the result.
[/quote]

So why he pictured that so and why he used is as a term "opposite to supination"? Why so because pronation has nothing to do with scooping?

Why the most logical and most simple case can't be accepted. 60 Years ago those terms were not well known and if You go down to feet, supination and pronation goes about like Hogan said.

Anyway my point was that I havn't heard Johnny Miller or others talking about Hogans supination, only "supination" and to really make this puzzle ready, You have to deeply understand both moves and how they were connected together and how strong moves they are.

[eightiron]

[quote name='TeeAce' date='10 February 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1265783199' post='2240560']
[quote name='SwingNV' date='08 February 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1265659748' post='2236503']
I think he used the term pronation because he was once again trying to tell us the cause of the scoop, not the result.
[/quote]

So why he pictured that so and why he used is as a term "opposite to supination"? Why so because pronation has nothing to do with scooping?

Why the most logical and most simple case can't be accepted. 60 Years ago those terms were not well known and if You go down to feet, supination and pronation goes about like Hogan said.

Anyway my point was that I havn't heard Johnny Miller or others talking about Hogans supination, only "supination" and to really make this puzzle ready, [b]You have to deeply understand both moves and how they were connected together and how strong moves[/b] they are.



[/quote]


so if you uncocked the left wist what happens to the sweetspot vs rolling the left forearm

[TeeAce]

[quote name='eightiron' date='10 February 2010 - 10:55 AM' timestamp='1265792132' post='2240649']
[quote name='TeeAce' date='10 February 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1265783199' post='2240560']
[quote name='SwingNV' date='08 February 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1265659748' post='2236503']
I think he used the term pronation because he was once again trying to tell us the cause of the scoop, not the result.
[/quote]

So why he pictured that so and why he used is as a term "opposite to supination"? Why so because pronation has nothing to do with scooping?

Why the most logical and most simple case can't be accepted. 60 Years ago those terms were not well known and if You go down to feet, supination and pronation goes about like Hogan said.

Anyway my point was that I havn't heard Johnny Miller or others talking about Hogans supination, only "supination" and to really make this puzzle ready, [b]You have to deeply understand both moves and how they were connected together and how strong moves[/b] they are.



[/quote]


so if you uncocked the left wist what happens to the sweetspot vs rolling the left forearm



[/quote]

Sorry I didn't exactly understood the question, but I try to explain something about my studies.

If You only roll Your left arm (supination) club head will turn closed and come a lot inside the target line. It will also pass the hands really quickly. If you do same time strong palmar flexion move, it keeps the club head delayed and much more longer at target line or even little bit outside of that. If You still add there ulnar deviation, it even helps little more.

Strange thing is that You feel You are closing the club face really strongly and try to cover the ball with face, but it closes less than You think. Sorry it's so hard to explain without showing it live, but hope You get some idea of my meanings.

On the other side to do those, You have to also rotate club face open as much as possible with whole arm triangle, which means front elbow going out and back elbow staying close to the body.

[supercharger]

[attachment=555416:P1040026.JPG][attachment=555417:P1040027.JPG][attachment=555418:P1040028.JPG]Is this what you are trying to explain?

[Diz]

[quote name='supercharger' date='10 March 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1268261581' post='2307427']
[attachment=555416:P1040026.JPG][attachment=555417:P1040027.JPG][attachment=555418:P1040028.JPG]Is this what you are trying to explain?
[/quote]


Those stills look good ,can I see that in full speed ..... u have some major expansion going on....