What Elements Make Up Your Ideal Course?

[FAbb]

I thought it would be interesting to see what course design elements/attributes are most desirable to other WRX'ers. Length, tree lined, water hazards, flat, hilly, large greens, blind shots... etc? I'd say that my ideal traits are;

 

- At least one set of tees around or over 7000 yards

- At least one or two par 5s reachable with two good shots. I also appreciate good true 3 shot par 5s.

- A couple short risk/reward type par 4s

- Each par 3 should require you to hit a different club under normal conditions

- medium size greens that are undulating, but fair, and putt true

- visually challenging tee shots, but generous landing areas

- no completely blind shots (assuming your ball isn't in another holes fairway or something)

- A small amount of elevation changes (not flat, but not excessively hilly)

 

I'll come back and edit later if I think of anything else, but in the meantime lets hear what you've got to say!

 

-Bryan

[swbyps]

I do like the risk reward par 4s, but too many times from the middle tees the par 4 second shot is around 150yds or less. I would like a par 4 that requires maybe 180yds on the second shot. That is a challenging second shot in my mind.

[tElihu]

Just give me a combination of any of the below and I"m all set:

Pebble Beach
Shinnecock hills
Whistling Straights
Pinehurst #2
Banyon Dunes (any of them)
Chambers Bay
Ballybunion

[FAbb]

[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1285086386' post='2707067']
I do like the risk reward par 4s, but too many times from the middle tees the par 4 second shot is around 150yds or less. I would like a par 4 that requires maybe 180yds on the second shot. That is a challenging second shot in my mind.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's why I like to see at least one set around 7000 or a little over. I don't want to have 180 into every par 4, but a course that length will generally challenge me to hit a lot of different clubs for my approach shots.

tElihu, what elements do those courses have that make them "ideal" to you? Seems like some of your choices are more flat and links style, while pinehurst would be quite different.

Bryan

[3_Jack_Par]

-4 or 5 sets of tees with the tips 7000+ yards, and with gaps of about 300/400 yards between each set.
-Forward tees that don't require many forced carries and give options to go around trouble (I play with my mom a lot, and it's frustrating to her when she has no chance to score well because of a near guarantee of a penalty
-A mix of par 5s where there is a legitimate chance to reach a couple of them in two, and a couple that are 3-shot holes
-A mix of short, medium, and long par-4s that require the use of several different clubs on the approach
-A mix of green sizes, requiring various degrees of precision to hit them. I like to see at least one long par-4 with a small green that requires a really good shot to hit the surface
-For par 3s, one short one, one long one, and a couple of medium length ones. Ideally, you should be required to hit 4 different clubs under average conditions.
-Holes that turn both ways, and reward the ability to work the ball both ways, including holes that encourage different shot shapes from the tee and on the approach.
-Trouble off the tee placed at different points, which encourage you to blast away on some holes, and a more conservative approach on others, but reward a well-executed, aggressive play.
- Green complexes that allow for creativity -- some chances to run it up if your strong suit isn't the aerial game.

[laxindon25]

-A short par 4 that is reachable but risky
-A long par 4 that requires a 4 or 5 iron to reach
-A reachable par 5
-A long par 5, (at least 550 yard)
-A par 3 that you need a 4, 5, or 6 iron
-A par three that you can use a 9 iron or pitching wedge
-fairway bunkers
- The scenery needs to nice
- Finally the greens should vary in size, shape, and undulation

[One_Putt_Blunder]

[quote name='bja24' timestamp='1285084789' post='2707026']
I thought it would be interesting to see what course design elements/attributes are most desirable to other WRX'ers. Length, tree lined, water hazards, flat, hilly, large greens, blind shots... etc? I'd say that my ideal traits are;

- At least one set of tees around or over 7000 yards
- At least one or two par 5s reachable with two good shots. I also appreciate good true 3 shot par 5s.
- A couple short risk/reward type par 4s
- Each par 3 should require you to hit a different club under normal conditions
- medium size greens that are undulating, but fair, and putt true
- visually challenging tee shots, but generous landing areas
- no completely blind shots (assuming your ball isn't in another holes fairway or something)
- A small amount of elevation changes (not flat, but not excessively hilly)

I'll come back and edit later if I think of anything else, but in the meantime lets hear what you've got to say!

-Bryan
[/quote]

You just described the Saguaro course at Wekopa to a T, Coore/Crenshaw layout and top 100 you can play course. It has all of the above. BTW I agree with you post I was pretty much going to post the same thing
[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/215615-wekopa-saguaro-course/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...saguaro-course/[/url]

[Boba]

Hot cart girls & good burgers are a good pairing with an A.W. Tillinghast design.

[fore_life]

I'm a big fan of par 3's that have difficult green complexes, but aren't very long(re: less than 200). I like the challenge of trying to hit the correct tier or "zone" where a good shot is rewarded but a poor shot that still reaches the green makes for a difficult 2 putt, or if you miss the green, effective bunkering that can lead to a tough up and down. Im not a fan of 220+ yard par 3's that are basically hit the green and two putt or chip and putt for par.


The courses I played in Tennesse all had brilliant par 3's that I hit a different club on each one, but it required a solidly struck and accurate iron shot.

[SpinMill75]

Nice post!

Here are mine -

Variety of tee boxes maybe 4 sets.

Some elevation changes, not too flat or too hilly.

Small trees and shrubs, gorse or otherwise rather than towering trees.

Holes designed to allow Mother Nature to have her say with wind direction, rain , etc.

Deep bunkers that may force you to not always advance the ball forward.

Large yet fast greens

No "flower gardens" ala' Augusta......no disrespect intended.

Risk/Reward holes


Can you tell I'm a fan of links courses?

[tElihu]

[quote name='bja24' timestamp='1285087023' post='2707088']
[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1285086386' post='2707067']
I do like the risk reward par 4s, but too many times from the middle tees the par 4 second shot is around 150yds or less. I would like a par 4 that requires maybe 180yds on the second shot. That is a challenging second shot in my mind.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's why I like to see at least one set around 7000 or a little over. I don't want to have 180 into every par 4, but a course that length will generally challenge me to hit a lot of different clubs for my approach shots.

[b]tElihu, what elements do those courses have that make them "ideal" to you? Seems like some of your choices are more flat and links style, while pinehurst would be quite different.
[/b]
Bryan
[/quote]

Links, definitely, but living in South Florida, I would call NONE of them flat. To answer your question:

1. Built on a great piece of land (if the course were gone I'd still want to go there)
2. Weather (wind, rain, etc...) is an important part of the difficulty of the course
3. Natural looking ( If you took the flags out and let the course grow in, you'd have a hard time knowing it was a golf course.
4. Emphasizes many different types of shots, including the short game.
5. Can play easy to extremely difficult given the weather and conditions.

[FAbb]

[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1285609870' post='2716334']
[quote name='bja24' timestamp='1285087023' post='2707088']
[quote name='swbyps' timestamp='1285086386' post='2707067']
I do like the risk reward par 4s, but too many times from the middle tees the par 4 second shot is around 150yds or less. I would like a par 4 that requires maybe 180yds on the second shot. That is a challenging second shot in my mind.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's why I like to see at least one set around 7000 or a little over. I don't want to have 180 into every par 4, but a course that length will generally challenge me to hit a lot of different clubs for my approach shots.

[b]tElihu, what elements do those courses have that make them "ideal" to you? Seems like some of your choices are more flat and links style, while pinehurst would be quite different.
[/b]
Bryan
[/quote]

Links, definitely, but living in South Florida, I would call NONE of them flat. To answer your question:

1. Built on a great piece of land (if the course were gone I'd still want to go there)
2. Weather (wind, rain, etc...) is an important part of the difficulty of the course
3. Natural looking ( If you took the flags out and let the course grow in, you'd have a hard time knowing it was a golf course.
4. Emphasizes many different types of shots, including the short game.
5. Can play easy to extremely difficult given the weather and conditions.
[/quote]

I like numbers 1 and 3 a lot. It seems that many of the best courses are regarded as so because the land they are built on is phenomenal. I'll also add that I like courses to play a little firmer than what's common (at least in this area). It makes it interesting when greens are firm enough that you actually have to play for some bounce and release. It also opens up short game shots that just aren't an option on soft courses.

Bryan

[Fontona19]

I like golf coarses that make me think. I like to have to use different shot shapes, and distances. Mix it up, even my ideal coarse would get boring after awhile.

[OneBowTie]

My ideal course would have fast and true greens. After that I don't care if its traditional or links style, nor if its modern or old school.
I like a course that does have options on yardage (tee boxes).
I want drink coolers at least every 3 holes. Add in a halfway house that offers more then packaged hot dogs.

Have some water/rivers/creeks/ponds of some kind on a couple holes per nine.

Have a couple true par 5's and at least one par 5 that offers risk vs reward.

Have at least one par 4 per nine that is 425. Have one par 4 per nine that dares you, and offers reward for well hit tee shots, and is penal for badly struck tee shots.

Have one par 3 135 yards , 2 par 3's between 150 and 185, and have one par 3 200-210 yards.

Mix in some fairway bunkers on the fairways to catch wide tee shots, plus have bunkers that allow you to either choose to hit over them or play away from them. Have some greens guarded by a mixture of bunkers- I.E. have some shallow bunkers, have some deep bunkers.

I also like the natural cart paths, so if you land on them, you play off of them, no free drops.

after that, put trees, natural areas, 1st-2nd-and then primary rough on the course

[hayzooos]

Awesome topic! I've thought about this quite a bit previously, and just now realize I have missed a few things. I've always been a fairly simple guy, and I'm a fan of any course which I hit every club in my bag. I think that's usually a pretty good test to a course. A few listed already:

--different clubs on par 3's. Nothing worse than hitting a 6 iron at 3/4 of the par 3s.
--visually intimidating tee shots, but generous landing areas. Love chutes off the tee...
--yardage gaps need to be reasonable. I hate when one set of tees is around 6,300 and the next back is like 6,900 or something like that. Needs to be more middle ground for the above average, but not yet scratch golfer. Somewhere for the higher single digits is what I was thinking.
--faster greens, but they need to hold a line. I'd even take slow greens so long as the ball rolls true, but that doens't usually coincide.
--courses that actually require thought. As in, don't just reach for the big stick on every tee not on a par 3.

One I saw above and agree 100% with is the guy talking about playing a lot with his mother. I play quite a bit of golf with my Ma, and I'm in 100% agreement with you. Many of the courses I absolutely love, she is unable to play simply because it seems like they forgot about women and just plopped tee boxes at completely random places.

I'm a big fan of having 3 of each on one of the sides. As in 3 par 3's/4's/5's. Still a par 36, but is WAY different than having 5 par 4's on a side with two of the others.

[larrybud]

I tell you what ruins a course for me:

1) Forced layups off the tee on par 5s
2) Forced layups off the tee on par 4s which require a 2nd shot longer than the first
3) Crappy greens. This can make or break a course.
4) Poor setup for the day. Tee boxes so far back that you can't go back 2 club lengths, uneven tee boxes, and stupid pin positions. Ideally there should be 6 easy, 6 medium, and 6 difficult pin positions.

[tElihu]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1287863325' post='2755892']
I tell you what ruins a course for me:

1) Forced layups off the tee on par 5s
2) Forced layups off the tee on par 4s which require a 2nd shot longer than the first
3) Crappy greens. This can make or break a course.
4) Poor setup for the day. Tee boxes so far back that you can't go back 2 club lengths, uneven tee boxes, and stupid pin positions. Ideally there should be 6 easy, 6 medium, and 6 difficult pin positions.
[/quote]


Gotta agree with all of those. I'd rather play a bad layout with good greens than vice versa any day of the week.